GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (52 children)

I just cannot accept something that I did not choose and that has felt wrong to me my entire life. I don't think it's the worst torture imaginable for everyone, just for me. Idk what information I could "process" that would in any way improve my situation or how I conceptualize myself. You can let biology control you but I don't think that's healthy either

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (51 children)

Biology doesn’t control me though. I think this may be a projection. My biology just is. No matter what I may feel about it, it is. Interfering with it will not meaningfully alter my biology.

Every day people are having to make peace with things they cannot control about their bodies. People get arthritis, osteoporosis, paralysed, they lose limbs and sight and hearing. They are short or tall or broad shouldered or prone to fat.

Your denial and emotional arguments aren’t going to change material reality. I’m not trying to take this coping mechanism away from you but I won’t treat your emotions about things as a reason to also indulge in fantasy and idealistic wishes when there are real things.

For people who don’t have these type of issues with gender, the rhetoric can seem kind of..navel gazey. It can look to outsiders like a request we put aside our own realities and perceptions in order to allow someone else to better feed their own idealised version of themselves.

Imagine being told that someone can’t achieve, idk, heaven or enlightenment or some other ideal unless you agree the ideal exists, you see it, and you say so to the person aiming for heaven.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

You don't have to believe in anything to recognized that trans people are in the process in or moving towards changing our biology.

I don't really care about arguing based on logic. Emotions are the core of who we are.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

I disagree entirely that emotions are the core of who we are, and that trans people are meaningfully changing their biology.

Cosmetically they can alter some things to a degree, but it isn’t possible to physically become another thing.

I’m unsure what your goal is here if you won’t engage with logic and insist on answering things only from a personal perspective.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (48 children)

It's very possible, humans are not as sexually dimorphic as many other mammals. Hormones control and influence a lot and we are only getting better at changing people's phenotype. The shape of people's bodies, our sex characteristics, the hormones we run on, that's all biology, all changeable to a growing extent.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It's very possible, humans are not as sexually dimorphic as many other mammals. Hormones control and influence a lot and we are only getting better at changing people's phenotype. The shape of people's bodies, our sex characteristics, the hormones we run on, that's all biology, all changeable to a growing extent.

If humans are not as sexually dimorphic as many other mammals, how come that even amongst those in trans community who have gone to the greatest lengths using Big Pharma hormone formulations (and sometimes surgeries) to alter their outward appearance to give the impression they have secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex, only TPs who are biologically female get pregnant and have babies?

If humans are not as sexually dimorphic as many other mammals, how come that even amongst those in trans community who have gone to the greatest lengths using Big Pharma hormone formulations (and sometimes surgeries) to alter their outward appearance to give the impression they have secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex, how come male TPs are winning and setting records in girls' and women's sports but female TPs are not winning and setting records in boys' and men's sports? How come male TPs are bumping girls and women off teams, out of competition, off awards podiums and out of record books - but not a single female TP has done the same to any boys or men? How come numerous male TPs have taken top place and won titles and trophies in women's and girls' sports, but no female TPs have managed to distinguish themselves similarly in men's and boys' sports. Is it because trans boys and trans men don't try as hard as trans girls and trans women?

The shape of people's bodies, our sex characteristics, the hormones we run on, that's all biology, all changeable to a growing extent.

Yes, some fat can be redistributed, but there is no way to make a male skeleton into a female on, or vice versa. There is no way to change male kidneys into female kidneys. Males who suppress T and take estradiol still have hearts and lungs that are 25-38% and 10-12% larger and more powerful respectively than female people of equivalent height, weight and age - and male twitch fibers, male tendons, male airway cells, male explosiveness. Females who take exogenous testosterone will get deeper voices, facial hair, male-pattern balding and much higher rates of CV disease - but they still will have female pelvises, and thus female Q angles; female hearts, lungs, hands and feet and all the rest.

Also, you don't seem to understand the difference between primary and secondary sex characteristics. Or between outwardly appearing to be something and actually being it. Used to be, learning about Potemkin villages, animals changing coloration, trompe-l'œil, subterfuge, FX in media were standard parts of growing up. Used to be, most people grew up to understand that surface is not substance, illusion and reality are not the same thing, and there's often a major difference between the outer packaging and what's inside. Did you really reach adulthood not learning any of this?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

only TPs who are biologically female get pregnant and have babies?

Pregnancy for trans women is actively being worked on and will eventually be a thing even if I'm too old to get the chance. Also big pharma formulations, u know a lot of dosing is community sourced right? A ton of us are obvi very invested in what we're taking and often it's us telling doctors because many just don't know the standards or the standards are, well, substandard. The actual hormone I take is bioidentical to what's produced by the body.

how come male TPs are winning and setting records in girls' and women's sports but female TPs are not winning and setting records in boys' and men's sports? How come male TPs are bumping girls and women off teams, out of competition, off awards podiums and out of record books - but not a single female TP has done the same to any boys or men?

There are trans men in sports too y'all just don't demonize them as much. There was a trans man swimmer that ik of.

Honestly it probably varies by sport and I'm not at all opposed to having different standards for different sports that's actually based on an individual's biology after transitioning.

Yes, some fat can be redistributed, but there is no way to make a male skeleton into a female on, or vice versa

Starting on hrt early enough affects our hip bone growth and fat redistribution goes a long way. And there are upcoming surgeries being done to alter bone structure. Like I was gonna look into getting my leg bones shortened in Ukraine but well, yeah :(

There is no way to change male kidneys into female kidneys

Oh no my kidneys don't pass /j

female Q angles

Lol don't tell me you read that ridiculous transvestigation stuff which is literally the only place I see this term used.

Also everything you said about organs is just averages? I have faith that we'll figure out how to alter a lot of those in time, but I'm mainly dysphoric about stuff on the outside. I'm lucky in that I'm short and have small hands etc, and that I didn't end up with a bad pattern of breast and fat development.

Or between outwardly appearing to be something and actually being it

Yeah, I don't. What's inside me is to me irredeemably disgusting and awful but through transitioning at least the packaging is alright. I just don't show past that layer to most people. Tbh I've been kind of done dating cis people for a while now because they don't get it. Other trans people do though because there's a mutual understanding not to try and peel back the layers.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Cancer cures have been actively worked on for longer than you or I have been alive and yet cancer remains.

Investigation is not a promise, or an assertion of possibility. Snake oil salesmen can actively work on male pregnancy until the sun dies. It won’t make it feasible.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Pregnancy for trans women is actively being worked on and will eventually be a thing

Oh no my kidneys don't pass /j

Huh? How on earth will any TW be able to sustain a pregnancy without female kidney function? No offense, but you seem utterly clueless about what pregnancy involves.

female Q angles

Lol don't tell me you read that ridiculous transvestigation stuff which is literally the only place I see this term used.

Female Q angles are very important to those of us who do or did sports and are female, and who have coached or given sports instruction to female people. Female Q angles are a main reason teen girls and women are especially vulnerable to certain kinds of injuries in sports. My own female Q angles are a main reason I needed surgery in my 20s to correct injuries done to my knees from skiing and running in my youth.

Female Q angles are pretty important in human labor and childbirth too. The scorn and contempt you show regarding female Q angles makes you seem like not just a misogynist, but like a raving MRA. Do you show your own mother and gran such disrespect?

I dunno what "transvestigation" is - never heard of it.

Also everything you said about organs is just averages?

Yes, the stuff I said about organs are just averages. But there are no overlaps between the male and female averages I mentioned. In other words, when I said that male hearts and lungs are 25-38% and 10-12% larger and more powerful than the same organs in females, the bottom on of the male average is still 25% and 10% above the top of the female average.

I have faith that we'll figure out how to alter a lot of those in time, but I'm mainly dysphoric about stuff on the outside.

I think you would benefit a great deal if you considered why your unhappiness is mainly "about stuff on the outside." I think you might feel a lot less "dysphoric" if you stopped focusing and fixating on surface and paid more attention to substance.

Also big pharma formulations, u know a lot of dosing is community sourced right? A ton of us are obvi very invested in what we're taking and often it's us telling doctors because many just don't know the standards or the standards are, well, substandard. The actual hormone I take is bioidentical to what's produced by the body

Where are the ingredients coming for the "community sourced" hormone formulations you say you and other TW take? Please detail the sourcing and processes that go into their manufacture. Trace the supply chain from start to finish.

The actual hormone I take is bioidentical to what's produced by the body

How do you know? And to whose body exactly are you speaking of when you say it's "biodentical to what's produced by the body"?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'd probably need medication or dialysis to support my kidneys, if there's no way to cause the usual kidney growth.

Do you show your own mother and gran such disrespect?

My mom has said horrible things to me about me dating a man and about me being trans, for that and other stuff I won't get into I don't respect her. We are barely on speaking terms. Unfortunately my grandmother is dead and I miss her dearly.

The only time I have ever heard Q angles used in the context of trans people is by this infamous Twitter user bevvie112, who non-stop posts about celebrities being secretly trans with the most ludicrous justifications.

But there are no overlaps between the male and female averages I mentioned

Someone could still have a smaller than average heart or maybe shrink it surgically.

fixating on surface and paid more attention to substance.

It doesn't work like that. I am horrified to live in my body inside and out, but at least when I go out people don't look at my internal organs. Their size isn't super relevant to my life.

Where are the ingredients coming for the "community sourced" hormone formulations you say you and other TW take

The people I know buy estradiol raws from China, the precursor to the oil-suspended estradiol that is usually prescribed to trans women. It's not really practical to manufacture raws on our own, it's a synthesization process that starts with purple yams or other phytoestrogens.

How do you know

Most trans people who make that stuff care about quality of product because we support each other. I trust them. It's the same source used to create what's prescribed.

My body. Everyone produces a bit of estradiol unless they have a condition otherwise.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The people I know buy estradiol raws from China, the precursor to the oil-suspended estradiol that is usually prescribed to trans women. It's not really practical to manufacture raws on our own, it's a synthesization process that starts with purple yams or other phytoestrogens.

But you said the hormone formulations TW rely on don't come from Big Pharma. China is Big Pharma. China is the world's single largest supplier of basic chemicals and active pharmaceutical ingredients (APIs) that provide the raw materials for the global pharmaceutical industry. From big industrial factories owned and operated by companies like J & J, Roche, AbbVie, Sanofi, Pfizer, Bristol Meyer, etc to licensed compounding pharmacies to individuals with a chem lab in their garage or a meth lab in their RV - most everyone in the drugs trade nowadays gets their raw materials from China, a country with more than 6000 pharmaceutical companies.

Now China is increasingly focusing on the development and production of finished pharmaceutical products (FPPs), primarily to serve the domestic market - which is the second largest drugs market in the world after the USA - but also with an eye to making FPPs for export. But the new focus on FPPs isn't to supplant China's role as the largest producer of the raw materials for all the makers of FPPs outside of China, it's to supplement it. China wants to keep its position as the main source of APIs and other pharma ingredients as it also produces more and more FPPs.

Today, all of the world's major estrogen products - whether you buy them already in finished form, or as raw materials are made or derived from plants - soybeans or yams - except for Premarin, which still is made from horse urine.

I have a hunch you think that estradiol is the only estrogen women's bodies produce and that "bioidentical estradiol" means the same thing as "natural estradiol." Neither is true. Estradiol is the major estrogen women produce from the ovaries, but it's not the only estrogen we produce.

Also bioidentical estradiol doesn't mean natural; it simply means it has the same molecular structure as the estradiol made by human ovaries. Another name is17β-estradiol.

Everyone produces a bit of estradiol unless they have a condition otherwise.

Yes, this is true. And unless it's coming from ovaries, the most common way that estradiol is made in the human body is by aromatizing either androstenedione into estrone and then converting the estrone into estradiol, or by converting the androstenedione into testosterone and then converting the testosterone into estradiol. The testicles and other sites in the male reproductive tract are a main source of estradiol in males.

Estradiol is produced especially within the follicles of the ovaries, but also in other tissues including the testicles, the adrenal glands, fat, liver, the breasts, and the brain. Estradiol is produced in the body from cholesterol through a series of reactions and intermediates.[10] The major pathway involves the formation of androstenedione, which is then converted by aromatase into estrone and is subsequently converted into estradiol. Alternatively, androstenedione can be converted into testosterone, which can then be converted into estradiol.

The effect of estradiol (and estrogens in general) upon male reproduction is complex.

Estrogens have traditionally been considered female hormones. Nevertheless, the presence of estrogen in males has been known for over 90 years. Initial studies suggested that estrogen was deleterious to male reproduction because exogenous treatments induced developmental abnormalities.

However, demonstrations of estrogen synthesis in the testis and high concentrations of 17β-estradiol in rete testis fluid suggested that the female hormone might have a function in normal male reproduction. Identification of estrogen receptors and development of biological radioisotope methods to assess estradiol binding revealed that the male reproductive tract expresses estrogen receptor extensively from the neonatal period to adulthood.

This indicated a role for estrogens in normal development, especially in efferent ductules, whose epithelium is the first in the male reproductive tract to express estrogen receptor during development and a site of exceedingly high expression. In the 1990s, a paradigm shift occurred in our understanding of estrogen function in the male, ushered in by knockout mouse models where estrogen production or expression of its receptors was not present. These knockout animals revealed that estrogen's main receptor (estrogen receptor 1 [ESR1]) is essential for male fertility and development of efferent ductules, epididymis, and prostate, and that loss of only the membrane fraction of ESR1 was sufficient to induce extensive male reproductive abnormalities and infertility.

This review provides perspectives on the major discoveries and developments that led to our current knowledge of estrogen's importance in the male reproductive tract and shaped our evolving concept of estrogen's physiological role in the male.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6044326/

The only time I have ever heard Q angles used in the context of trans people is by this infamous Twitter user bevvie112,

But the fact that you have never heard about Q angles anywhere else is a reflection on you, not on anyone else. Matters like Q angles come up in many discussions entirely separately to discussions about trans. Not everything is about you and the trans lobby.

Women and our bodies existed and we had issues in sports and other situations due our Q angles long before the current-day trans movement got going and long before males started using gender identity claims to horn in on women's and girls' sports. You seem to think the only reason GC women or anyone else would know about biology, human sex differences and female physiology in particular is so we can refute the claims made by QT and TRAs. Again, not everything is about TW or in reference to TW.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

There are trans men in sports too y'all just don't demonize them as much. There was a trans man swimmer that ik of.

No one has said there aren't trans identified females who are compenting in sports. We said they are not winning in MEN's sports. I know of a TM swimmer, too: she competes in the WOMEN's category, which is quite common among female athletes who identify as "men" or "non-binary". Funny how they are eager to compete against men unlike TW, who are eager to compete against women. I wonder why that could be...

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Wow it's almost like trans men identify as men and trans women identify as women. I think there'll be more trans man athletes over time, testosterone could very well allow some to compete against cis men in many sports.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

testosterone could very well allow some to compete against cis men in many sports.

We know this isn't true because of widespread doping that's occurred in sports over many decades. The GDR in particular ran a program in the 1960s, 70s and 80s in which large numbers of female athletes took exogenous testosterone regularly throughout their tween, teen and adult years. The androgenized female athletes won all the top prizes and broke records in many women's events such as Olympic swimming, but they never came close to performing anywhere near the levels of the elite males in their sports.

Florence Griffith Joyner was believed to have been doping on androgens when she set her world records in women's sprints in the 1980s. For 33 years, no female broke her records in the 100m or 200m. But since the year 2000 alone, more than 3,600 males have run faster than her 100m record.

https://twitter.com/fondofbeetles/status/1156542238777851904?lang=en

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wow it's almost like trans men identify as men and trans women identify as women.

And despite that both "transwomen" AND "transmen" are competing in the WOMEN's categories.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

Repeating your beliefs and opinions to me as though they were fact is convincing you, far more than me or any other reader, imo.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

What about what I just said is not factual

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

Sex characteristics are not resexed, complications from surgery are common, results are frequently insensate or painful, and I am yet to see a single example of reconfigured genitals that are not very obviously unnatural.

Hormones change a few of over 2000 physical differences between males and females. A bit of hair and a minor redistribution of fat dependent on a permanent regime of exogenous hormones is not a biological change, so much as a cosmetic deliberate causing of inducing hormone disorders.

A snake oil salesmen has convinced you of organ transplants that will facilitate male pregnancy and birth because they can profit from promising this is right around the corner and in the meantime they’d be happy to offer FFS for the life savings of the average applicant.

This does not mean it will actually be achieved.

Altering phenotypes improving all the time is an opinion. Experimental surgery to treat mental anguish gaining acceptance, popularity, and guineapigs being good is your opinion.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

Sex characteristics are not resexed

I have breasts and the shape of lots of things from my face to my feet changed. I don't want to talk about my sex life, but last I checked breasts were a secondary sex characteristic differs between men and women.

I am yet to see a single example of reconfigured genitals that are not very obviously unnatural

Ever think those content with their results don't want you looking at them? If you get your examples from that awful botched SRS sub or similar then ofc you'd think this.

Also, most surgery pics circulated are from right after it was done so ofc they will bad, it's still healing.

they’d be happy to offer FFS for the life savings of the average applicant.

All the more reason for trans people's care to be more in the hands of trans people so that we don't have to rely on random doctors without our best interests. I will pay to get FFS because I can't do the surgery myself, but yes it is frustrating.

so much as a cosmetic deliberate causing of inducing hormone disorders.

Yeah it's deliberate, no it is not a disorder. My hormone levels are probably more stable than yours or anyone else who produces their sex hormones endogenously. I feel and am fine with my new levels

Compare trans care now to trans care 80 years ago. We used to have to rely on horse estrogen. And it's undeniable that in the last few decades more and more SRS surgeons have popped up to serve community need. Surgery is kinda inherently phenotypical change, and the techniques for vaginoplasty have been improving that's just the truth.

It's hardly experimental when SRS was first performed almost a century ago.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

You having either breast implants or induced gynemastica does not mean that humanity has succeeded in altering human sexual dimorphism.

If they wanted their results private they surely would not have uploaded them to public imgur albums and Reddit and their personal blogs, often with statements about how excited they are to share. Have you ever looked at the transgender surgery subreddits?

I am concerned that all you take away from someone selling you a lie like male pregnancy is that it’s frustrating that they are the only person who can charge you exorbitant fees for minor results.

Transgender people are not prevented from becoming cosmetic surgeons, so the numbers of transgender surgeons available is an internal fight for y’all to have.

A disorder is not defined by how you feel about it, so I am not going to pretend that excess female hormones in any male body is healthy function. I’m glad you don’t feel unwell but it is only health to someone with a very distorted perception of the concept.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Oh, another thing. If by experimental surgery you mean SRS and you don't want us to be able to get SRS, why do other GCers also insist that trans women who don't get SRS are more dangerous or aren't really trans or have a fetish? Do y'all want us to get surgery or not?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I mean experimental surgery like the “patchwork” technique developed on Jazz Jennings, the abdominal pull-down phalloplasty, surgeries intended to reduce or enlarge the hips or long bones, radical craniofacial techniques in Korea, tilapia grafts for vaginoplasty, and many other experimental gender related surgeries.