GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (54 children)

Because that self-acceptance would require me to accept something that feels and has always felt incredibly wrong to me. I would be a different person entirely and so it's kind of pointless to accept that because "I" wouldn't be around to live that life; it'd be some version of me content with being amab. That's so unfamiliar to me that I find it totally unrelatable.

Also idk it took me forever to accept that I'm trans and I'm still kind of ashamed of it so I'd rather not tax my mental health with accepting additional things

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

And you don’t think it’s better to accept the unchangeable, maybe improve some patterns of thought like the ones that say maleness is the worst torture imaginable?

Preferring not to process information that is painful is not a healthy practice. If you prefer not to tax yourself with accepting material reality that’s your choice, but it’s not a healthy one.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (52 children)

I just cannot accept something that I did not choose and that has felt wrong to me my entire life. I don't think it's the worst torture imaginable for everyone, just for me. Idk what information I could "process" that would in any way improve my situation or how I conceptualize myself. You can let biology control you but I don't think that's healthy either

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (51 children)

Biology doesn’t control me though. I think this may be a projection. My biology just is. No matter what I may feel about it, it is. Interfering with it will not meaningfully alter my biology.

Every day people are having to make peace with things they cannot control about their bodies. People get arthritis, osteoporosis, paralysed, they lose limbs and sight and hearing. They are short or tall or broad shouldered or prone to fat.

Your denial and emotional arguments aren’t going to change material reality. I’m not trying to take this coping mechanism away from you but I won’t treat your emotions about things as a reason to also indulge in fantasy and idealistic wishes when there are real things.

For people who don’t have these type of issues with gender, the rhetoric can seem kind of..navel gazey. It can look to outsiders like a request we put aside our own realities and perceptions in order to allow someone else to better feed their own idealised version of themselves.

Imagine being told that someone can’t achieve, idk, heaven or enlightenment or some other ideal unless you agree the ideal exists, you see it, and you say so to the person aiming for heaven.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

You don't have to believe in anything to recognized that trans people are in the process in or moving towards changing our biology.

I don't really care about arguing based on logic. Emotions are the core of who we are.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

I disagree entirely that emotions are the core of who we are, and that trans people are meaningfully changing their biology.

Cosmetically they can alter some things to a degree, but it isn’t possible to physically become another thing.

I’m unsure what your goal is here if you won’t engage with logic and insist on answering things only from a personal perspective.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (48 children)

It's very possible, humans are not as sexually dimorphic as many other mammals. Hormones control and influence a lot and we are only getting better at changing people's phenotype. The shape of people's bodies, our sex characteristics, the hormones we run on, that's all biology, all changeable to a growing extent.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It's very possible, humans are not as sexually dimorphic as many other mammals. Hormones control and influence a lot and we are only getting better at changing people's phenotype. The shape of people's bodies, our sex characteristics, the hormones we run on, that's all biology, all changeable to a growing extent.

If humans are not as sexually dimorphic as many other mammals, how come that even amongst those in trans community who have gone to the greatest lengths using Big Pharma hormone formulations (and sometimes surgeries) to alter their outward appearance to give the impression they have secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex, only TPs who are biologically female get pregnant and have babies?

If humans are not as sexually dimorphic as many other mammals, how come that even amongst those in trans community who have gone to the greatest lengths using Big Pharma hormone formulations (and sometimes surgeries) to alter their outward appearance to give the impression they have secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex, how come male TPs are winning and setting records in girls' and women's sports but female TPs are not winning and setting records in boys' and men's sports? How come male TPs are bumping girls and women off teams, out of competition, off awards podiums and out of record books - but not a single female TP has done the same to any boys or men? How come numerous male TPs have taken top place and won titles and trophies in women's and girls' sports, but no female TPs have managed to distinguish themselves similarly in men's and boys' sports. Is it because trans boys and trans men don't try as hard as trans girls and trans women?

The shape of people's bodies, our sex characteristics, the hormones we run on, that's all biology, all changeable to a growing extent.

Yes, some fat can be redistributed, but there is no way to make a male skeleton into a female on, or vice versa. There is no way to change male kidneys into female kidneys. Males who suppress T and take estradiol still have hearts and lungs that are 25-38% and 10-12% larger and more powerful respectively than female people of equivalent height, weight and age - and male twitch fibers, male tendons, male airway cells, male explosiveness. Females who take exogenous testosterone will get deeper voices, facial hair, male-pattern balding and much higher rates of CV disease - but they still will have female pelvises, and thus female Q angles; female hearts, lungs, hands and feet and all the rest.

Also, you don't seem to understand the difference between primary and secondary sex characteristics. Or between outwardly appearing to be something and actually being it. Used to be, learning about Potemkin villages, animals changing coloration, trompe-l'œil, subterfuge, FX in media were standard parts of growing up. Used to be, most people grew up to understand that surface is not substance, illusion and reality are not the same thing, and there's often a major difference between the outer packaging and what's inside. Did you really reach adulthood not learning any of this?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

only TPs who are biologically female get pregnant and have babies?

Pregnancy for trans women is actively being worked on and will eventually be a thing even if I'm too old to get the chance. Also big pharma formulations, u know a lot of dosing is community sourced right? A ton of us are obvi very invested in what we're taking and often it's us telling doctors because many just don't know the standards or the standards are, well, substandard. The actual hormone I take is bioidentical to what's produced by the body.

how come male TPs are winning and setting records in girls' and women's sports but female TPs are not winning and setting records in boys' and men's sports? How come male TPs are bumping girls and women off teams, out of competition, off awards podiums and out of record books - but not a single female TP has done the same to any boys or men?

There are trans men in sports too y'all just don't demonize them as much. There was a trans man swimmer that ik of.

Honestly it probably varies by sport and I'm not at all opposed to having different standards for different sports that's actually based on an individual's biology after transitioning.

Yes, some fat can be redistributed, but there is no way to make a male skeleton into a female on, or vice versa

Starting on hrt early enough affects our hip bone growth and fat redistribution goes a long way. And there are upcoming surgeries being done to alter bone structure. Like I was gonna look into getting my leg bones shortened in Ukraine but well, yeah :(

There is no way to change male kidneys into female kidneys

Oh no my kidneys don't pass /j

female Q angles

Lol don't tell me you read that ridiculous transvestigation stuff which is literally the only place I see this term used.

Also everything you said about organs is just averages? I have faith that we'll figure out how to alter a lot of those in time, but I'm mainly dysphoric about stuff on the outside. I'm lucky in that I'm short and have small hands etc, and that I didn't end up with a bad pattern of breast and fat development.

Or between outwardly appearing to be something and actually being it

Yeah, I don't. What's inside me is to me irredeemably disgusting and awful but through transitioning at least the packaging is alright. I just don't show past that layer to most people. Tbh I've been kind of done dating cis people for a while now because they don't get it. Other trans people do though because there's a mutual understanding not to try and peel back the layers.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Cancer cures have been actively worked on for longer than you or I have been alive and yet cancer remains.

Investigation is not a promise, or an assertion of possibility. Snake oil salesmen can actively work on male pregnancy until the sun dies. It won’t make it feasible.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Pregnancy for trans women is actively being worked on and will eventually be a thing

Oh no my kidneys don't pass /j

Huh? How on earth will any TW be able to sustain a pregnancy without female kidney function? No offense, but you seem utterly clueless about what pregnancy involves.

female Q angles

Lol don't tell me you read that ridiculous transvestigation stuff which is literally the only place I see this term used.

Female Q angles are very important to those of us who do or did sports and are female, and who have coached or given sports instruction to female people. Female Q angles are a main reason teen girls and women are especially vulnerable to certain kinds of injuries in sports. My own female Q angles are a main reason I needed surgery in my 20s to correct injuries done to my knees from skiing and running in my youth.

Female Q angles are pretty important in human labor and childbirth too. The scorn and contempt you show regarding female Q angles makes you seem like not just a misogynist, but like a raving MRA. Do you show your own mother and gran such disrespect?

I dunno what "transvestigation" is - never heard of it.

Also everything you said about organs is just averages?

Yes, the stuff I said about organs are just averages. But there are no overlaps between the male and female averages I mentioned. In other words, when I said that male hearts and lungs are 25-38% and 10-12% larger and more powerful than the same organs in females, the bottom on of the male average is still 25% and 10% above the top of the female average.

I have faith that we'll figure out how to alter a lot of those in time, but I'm mainly dysphoric about stuff on the outside.

I think you would benefit a great deal if you considered why your unhappiness is mainly "about stuff on the outside." I think you might feel a lot less "dysphoric" if you stopped focusing and fixating on surface and paid more attention to substance.

Also big pharma formulations, u know a lot of dosing is community sourced right? A ton of us are obvi very invested in what we're taking and often it's us telling doctors because many just don't know the standards or the standards are, well, substandard. The actual hormone I take is bioidentical to what's produced by the body

Where are the ingredients coming for the "community sourced" hormone formulations you say you and other TW take? Please detail the sourcing and processes that go into their manufacture. Trace the supply chain from start to finish.

The actual hormone I take is bioidentical to what's produced by the body

How do you know? And to whose body exactly are you speaking of when you say it's "biodentical to what's produced by the body"?

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

There are trans men in sports too y'all just don't demonize them as much. There was a trans man swimmer that ik of.

No one has said there aren't trans identified females who are compenting in sports. We said they are not winning in MEN's sports. I know of a TM swimmer, too: she competes in the WOMEN's category, which is quite common among female athletes who identify as "men" or "non-binary". Funny how they are eager to compete against men unlike TW, who are eager to compete against women. I wonder why that could be...

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

Repeating your beliefs and opinions to me as though they were fact is convincing you, far more than me or any other reader, imo.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

What about what I just said is not factual

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

Sex characteristics are not resexed, complications from surgery are common, results are frequently insensate or painful, and I am yet to see a single example of reconfigured genitals that are not very obviously unnatural.

Hormones change a few of over 2000 physical differences between males and females. A bit of hair and a minor redistribution of fat dependent on a permanent regime of exogenous hormones is not a biological change, so much as a cosmetic deliberate causing of inducing hormone disorders.

A snake oil salesmen has convinced you of organ transplants that will facilitate male pregnancy and birth because they can profit from promising this is right around the corner and in the meantime they’d be happy to offer FFS for the life savings of the average applicant.

This does not mean it will actually be achieved.

Altering phenotypes improving all the time is an opinion. Experimental surgery to treat mental anguish gaining acceptance, popularity, and guineapigs being good is your opinion.