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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Again, you all are free to advocate for third spaces

We aren't a third thing, we're men and women. I support third spaces for enbies but it should be up to them.

It's quite arrogant on your friends' part to consent to this in name of all women.

It's quite arrogant on yours to assume you speak for all women either?

Sorry, but when was the votation where it was decided that women's bathrooms will be open from anyone who identifyes as a "women" regardless of biology? I think I missed it, same with the votation where it was decided anyone could be a "woman".

You can't actually believe that there could ever be such a vote, right? People assume I am a woman regardless of how you vote, I don't need permission for that any more than you do.

The fact you all have been using women's bathrooms for decades doesn't mean you are now entitled to them

Neither does it entitle you to say we can't use them though.

baryng ALL males from such places.

  1. I'm not a "male" or at least I won't be cast as such against my will
  2. This will do absolutely nothing to stop predatory men. They should be arrested for what they actually do wrong, not just being in a bathroom, banning trans women will not deter them to any significant effect, plus, banning trans women will hurt more trans women than there would be those potentially helped if that actually deterred a small minority of predators.

Oh, right, women should be believed unless it's about "transwomen" accessing women's spaces

Trans women being in those spaces is not inherently harmful.

It's funny how you all expect sympathy for any potential male abuse you may suffer in men's bathrooms, and yet you all dismiss women's concerns so easily.

It's funny how you all expect trans women to defer to your concerns no matter what and flagellate ourselves because you think we don't deserve to stand up for ourselves, aka exactly how misogynistic men treat women. I have empathy for anyone who suffers abuse in a bathroom but I do not see why means the vast majority should be excluded. All women including trans women deserve public space away from men.

It's about the fact we are opposite sexes regardless of how you view yourself.

So? We don't have to be the same sex to both be women.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's about the fact we are opposite sexes regardless of how you view yourself.

So? We don't have to be the same sex to both be women.

Of course we would have to be the same sex to both be women! Saying you're a woman doesn't make you one just like saying you're a bird doesn't make you a bird, either. I'm not making any moral judgement by stating such facts. It's not my fault if you decide to interpret this as an attack against you because of your own views on women and men, and because of your self-esteem issues.

On the other hand, I find insulting your insistence that we are both woman and that sex is irrelevant. Once you decide that the definition of woman is not rooted in biology, all that is left are sex-based roles and stereotypes and I refuse to be defined on such terms. And I remind you that you have yet to explain in what way you are a "woman" beyond your own wishes, and why it's so important for you to reject your own sex.

As for what is harm in women giving up women's spaces like public bathrooms in order to accomodate people like you, well, here you have some examples:

Single-sex toilets needed to overcome girls' barriers to education,' says Unesco

Unisex changing rooms put women at danger of sexual assault, data reveals

Women are losing access to public toilets 'by stealth' amid a boom in gender-neutral loos, say experts

School girls rejecting mixed toilets over boys’ bad behaviour

Professor Blasts 'Unacceptable' Gender-Neutral Bathroom With Man at Urinal

Father Claims Daughter Was Sexually Assaulted by Male Student in Girls' Washroom at School

Male Student Filmed Women in “All Gender” Washroom

Lia Thomas' UPenn teammate tells how the trans swimmer doesn't always cover up her male genitals when changing and their concerns go ignored by their coach

LAPD Officer Blamed a Mother for Exposing her Daughter to Male Genitals at Wi Spa

Five Women Have Filed Police Reports Alleging Indecent Exposure at Wi Spa

Patient safety fears as NHS allows trans sex offenders in female-only wards

NHS 'gaslighting' patients over trans women on female-only wards, nurse claims

Hospital told police a woman who complained she was raped that only other women were present on the single-sex ward - before admitting after a YEAR that one was trans

Protecting men at the women’s shelter

‘Bigoted people may be challenged’: Comments by trans head of Edinburgh Rape Crisis sparks controversy

Why was convicted paedophile allowed to move to a female jail?

Male-Bodied Rapists Are Being Imprisoned With Women. Why Do so Few People Care?

Prison officers demand guidelines on transgender inmates

Female prisoners at greater risk of sexual assault by transgender inmates, High Court hears

High Court rules transgender women CAN go into female prisons: Judges rule government's policy is lawful despite claims from inmate it raised risk of sex attacks

Women prisoners who call transgender inmates ‘he’ or ‘him’ face extra jail time

Trans-Identified Male Inmates Committing Sexual Assault in Women's Jails, Female Ex-Inmate Claims

Female Prison Staff Called "Transphobic" for Discomfort with Trans-Identified Male Inmates

Two inmates at all-women's New Jersey jail are PREGNANT after both had sex with transgender prisoners: ACLU won battle to house 27 trans inmates there

UK: Women Recount Staff Denying there were Men in Single-Sex Hospital Spaces

Transgender Inmate Convicted Of Raping Female Prisoner at Women’s Facility

Women Being ‘Punished’ For Complaining About Male Transfers: Inmate in California Women’s Prison

I can look up more examples if you want, including ones that are only about public bathrooms.

Edit: typos

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Saying you're a woman doesn't make you one just like saying you're a bird doesn't make you a bird, either.

If I said I was a bird and got people to perceive me as a bird yeah I'd be a bird. I'm just not really feeling strongly on that lol

that we are both woman and that sex is irrelevant

Ofc sex is relevant but for me socially the sex I'm perceived to be is usually more relevant. I'm a woman because everyone from strangers to coworkers thinks I am and that matches with what I feel I am.

I've never needed a reason "why" to reject my sex. I wouldn't even really care if I found out why, honestly, what would it change? If a doctor or God came down and told me that I only feel this way because of a b & c, well, abc is a part of me and I wouldn't just feel different.

It could be the case that dysphoria can be caused by trauma, or misplaced gnc expression, or anything -- I'm still trans.

Also uhm, you can't reasonably expect me to respond to every single article in that right x( it will take me a while but fwiw

There have also been studies done showing that trans people using the bathroom did not cause any issues: https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

I don't think gender neutral toilets are a good idea so I'm not going against the articles you shared about them. A third, single stall room would be nice, but trans people have been using the room that matches our expression for a long time and will continue to just fine.

As for prisoners/criminals/people who have done awful things: 1. Obviously I do not support their crimes and I hope those they hurt receive help and love 2. If you want to talk about prison placement we can but idk how it's the same thing as bathrooms? Unless you think most people using bathrooms are criminals 3. Idk how I'm personally responsible for the actions of lia Thomas or r*pists or why their behavior or crimes should mean I'm treated the same

[–]Juniperius 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ofc sex is relevant but for me socially the sex I'm perceived to be is usually more relevant.

One of the major differences between men and women is that for women, our sex, the biological reality of our bodies, is much harder to ignore. It intrudes upon our attention all the time. We have to take it into consideration constantly. For men, their sex is much less salient. The main way sex matters for men is socially; ie, they are accorded all sorts of privileges based on their sex.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I would say that my biology intrudes upon me more than pre-transition but less than most women I know. That doesn't change how I identify or live, though. I'm just saying transitioning is an ongoing maintenance to keep my biology tolerable to me and that it isn't easy. I doubt being out at work would get me treated better either, even if it did I won't risk it.