GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

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[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It's about the fact we are opposite sexes regardless of how you view yourself.

So? We don't have to be the same sex to both be women.

Of course we would have to be the same sex to both be women! Saying you're a woman doesn't make you one just like saying you're a bird doesn't make you a bird, either. I'm not making any moral judgement by stating such facts. It's not my fault if you decide to interpret this as an attack against you because of your own views on women and men, and because of your self-esteem issues.

On the other hand, I find insulting your insistence that we are both woman and that sex is irrelevant. Once you decide that the definition of woman is not rooted in biology, all that is left are sex-based roles and stereotypes and I refuse to be defined on such terms. And I remind you that you have yet to explain in what way you are a "woman" beyond your own wishes, and why it's so important for you to reject your own sex.

As for what is harm in women giving up women's spaces like public bathrooms in order to accomodate people like you, well, here you have some examples:

Single-sex toilets needed to overcome girls' barriers to education,' says Unesco

Unisex changing rooms put women at danger of sexual assault, data reveals

Women are losing access to public toilets 'by stealth' amid a boom in gender-neutral loos, say experts

School girls rejecting mixed toilets over boys’ bad behaviour

Professor Blasts 'Unacceptable' Gender-Neutral Bathroom With Man at Urinal

Father Claims Daughter Was Sexually Assaulted by Male Student in Girls' Washroom at School

Male Student Filmed Women in “All Gender” Washroom

Lia Thomas' UPenn teammate tells how the trans swimmer doesn't always cover up her male genitals when changing and their concerns go ignored by their coach

LAPD Officer Blamed a Mother for Exposing her Daughter to Male Genitals at Wi Spa

Five Women Have Filed Police Reports Alleging Indecent Exposure at Wi Spa

Patient safety fears as NHS allows trans sex offenders in female-only wards

NHS 'gaslighting' patients over trans women on female-only wards, nurse claims

Hospital told police a woman who complained she was raped that only other women were present on the single-sex ward - before admitting after a YEAR that one was trans

Protecting men at the women’s shelter

‘Bigoted people may be challenged’: Comments by trans head of Edinburgh Rape Crisis sparks controversy

Why was convicted paedophile allowed to move to a female jail?

Male-Bodied Rapists Are Being Imprisoned With Women. Why Do so Few People Care?

Prison officers demand guidelines on transgender inmates

Female prisoners at greater risk of sexual assault by transgender inmates, High Court hears

High Court rules transgender women CAN go into female prisons: Judges rule government's policy is lawful despite claims from inmate it raised risk of sex attacks

Women prisoners who call transgender inmates ‘he’ or ‘him’ face extra jail time

Trans-Identified Male Inmates Committing Sexual Assault in Women's Jails, Female Ex-Inmate Claims

Female Prison Staff Called "Transphobic" for Discomfort with Trans-Identified Male Inmates

Two inmates at all-women's New Jersey jail are PREGNANT after both had sex with transgender prisoners: ACLU won battle to house 27 trans inmates there

UK: Women Recount Staff Denying there were Men in Single-Sex Hospital Spaces

Transgender Inmate Convicted Of Raping Female Prisoner at Women’s Facility

Women Being ‘Punished’ For Complaining About Male Transfers: Inmate in California Women’s Prison

I can look up more examples if you want, including ones that are only about public bathrooms.

Edit: typos

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Saying you're a woman doesn't make you one just like saying you're a bird doesn't make you a bird, either.

If I said I was a bird and got people to perceive me as a bird yeah I'd be a bird. I'm just not really feeling strongly on that lol

that we are both woman and that sex is irrelevant

Ofc sex is relevant but for me socially the sex I'm perceived to be is usually more relevant. I'm a woman because everyone from strangers to coworkers thinks I am and that matches with what I feel I am.

I've never needed a reason "why" to reject my sex. I wouldn't even really care if I found out why, honestly, what would it change? If a doctor or God came down and told me that I only feel this way because of a b & c, well, abc is a part of me and I wouldn't just feel different.

It could be the case that dysphoria can be caused by trauma, or misplaced gnc expression, or anything -- I'm still trans.

Also uhm, you can't reasonably expect me to respond to every single article in that right x( it will take me a while but fwiw

There have also been studies done showing that trans people using the bathroom did not cause any issues: https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

I don't think gender neutral toilets are a good idea so I'm not going against the articles you shared about them. A third, single stall room would be nice, but trans people have been using the room that matches our expression for a long time and will continue to just fine.

As for prisoners/criminals/people who have done awful things: 1. Obviously I do not support their crimes and I hope those they hurt receive help and love 2. If you want to talk about prison placement we can but idk how it's the same thing as bathrooms? Unless you think most people using bathrooms are criminals 3. Idk how I'm personally responsible for the actions of lia Thomas or r*pists or why their behavior or crimes should mean I'm treated the same

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Being mistaken for something is NOT the same as being that something! And yes, the difference between the two DOES matter. For example, sulphuric acid is a colorless and odorless liquid. If someone labeled a botle of it as water and, a while later, another person tried to drink it, what do you think it would happen?

Also uhm, you can't reasonably expect me to respond to every single article in that right x( it will take me a while but fwiw

Take all the time you need to read them. I can wait and there is no much activity in this sub, anyway.

There have also been studies done showing that trans people using the bathroom did not cause any issues:

What did happen with "women should be believed"? Also, I don't think an study on this issue made by the ACLU is trustworthy giving that they are set on not allowing American citizens to learn how many males who identify as trans have been transfered to women's prisons. If TWAW and they don't pose a risk to women, what is there to hide?

I don't think gender neutral toilets are a good idea so I'm not going against the articles you shared about them.

Allowing special exeptions for certain males is basically making women's toilets into mixed toilets. By allowing certain males in, you are making those places open for ALL males. And let's not forget women are NOT allowed to question the "gender identity" of any male wandering into women's spaces regardless of how much like a typical man he looks like.

A third, single stall room would be nice, but trans people have been using the room that matches our expression for a long time and will continue to just fine.

You're assuming women never have a problem with this before.

As for prisoners/criminals/people who have done awful things: 1. Obviously I do not support their crimes and I hope those they hurt receive help and love 2. If you want to talk about prison placement we can but idk how it's the same thing as bathrooms? Unless you think most people using bathrooms are criminals

I know this thread is about public restrooms in particular (because genderbender won't discuss any other space...), but I think other sex-segregated spaces are also relevant when discussing whether "gender identity" is more relevant than sex or not.

Idk how I'm personally responsible for the actions of lia Thomas or r*pists or why their behavior or crimes should mean I'm treated the same

I never claimed you were. Again, you are taking our "no" too personally despite that nothing of this is because of you in particular. Like I told you before, the best prevention strategy is barying all men from places certain places like bathrooms or changing rooms not because all men are sexual predators, but because women have no way to know which men are. Somehow you are able to understand that you don't want to be around regular males, yet you are unable to understand why women want to be away from all males regardless of how said males identify as.

BTW, according to this study, even after full "medical transition", TW retain male patterns of criminality. Also, according to official numbers from the UK, around 80% of trans identified inmates are "transwomen"; in contrast, women represent around the 4% of all British inmates.

Edit: typos

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Being mistaken for something is NOT the same as being that something

It pretty much is though? If you can't distinguish something or someone in a certain context than thats that.

If TWAW and they don't pose a risk to women, what is there to hide?

It's because you literally do exactly the same thing as racist people who post criminals to stir up hate against an entire demographic. I don't pose a risk to women, neither does anyone I know. Hyperfocusing on criminals who happen to be trans is deliberately associating transness with criminality which is just hatred nothing more.

By allowing certain males in, you are making those places open for ALL males

An exception doesn't mean the floodgates are open though

And let's not forget women are NOT allowed to question the "gender identity" of any male wandering into women's spaces regardless of how much like a typical man he looks like.

Yeah. You're allowed to question their actual actions and whether they're being a creep but that would apply regardless.

but I think other sex-segregated spaces are also relevant when discussing whether "gender identity" is more relevant than sex or not.

I've already admitted it's contextual which matters more so

Like I told you before, the best prevention strategy is barying all men from places certain places like bathrooms or changing rooms not because all men are sexual predators, but because women have no way to know which men are.

Trans women aren't men and you don't know which women are sexual predators either, things will be virtually no different if you ban those whose identity is "man" in terms of danger.

BTW, according to this study, even after full "medical transition", TW retain male patterns of criminality. Also, according to official numbers from the UK, around 80% of trans identified inmates are "transwomen"; in contrast, women represent around the 4% of all British inmates.

I distinctly remember some of the British statistics being debunked, I will have to try and dig that up. Something about it being based on the number of women convicted for rape but there actually being very few trans women.

I do think trans women in general should try and unlearn toxic models of socialization and anger, iirc that study mostly studied an older cohort of trans people who's behavior does not necessarily reflect on young trans people today. I'll get back to you, I'm going through a move and a bunch of stuff so

[–]Juniperius 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Jeez, you'd better never get into foraging. Edible plants/mushrooms vs poisonous lookalikes would be a real problem for you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've wanted to try so that I can touch grass and stuff and maybe as a component of witchcraft, but yeah I'd probably leave all of the lookalikes alone.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It pretty much is though? If you can't distinguish something or someone in a certain context than thats that.

Don't ignore the question: what would happen if someone tried to drink from a botle of sulphuric acid because it's labelled as a water?

It's because you literally do exactly the same thing as racist people who post criminals to stir up hate against an entire demographic. I don't pose a risk to women, neither does anyone I know. Hyperfocusing on criminals who happen to be trans is deliberately associating transness with criminality which is just hatred nothing more.

We've gone through this already: males (regardless of how they identify as) are a risk to women because they are physically stronger than us, they can impregnate us, they are more likely to be violent, and they are way more likely to be sexual predators. Declaring yourself a woman wont erase the historical oppression of women.

An exception doesn't mean the floodgates are open though

It literally does. Just read the links I gave you.

Yeah. You're allowed to question their actual actions and whether they're being a creep but that would apply regardless.

You're allowed to question the actions of any abusive man that may threat you in the men's bathrooms, but that would apply regardless.

I've already admitted it's contextual which matters more so

Oh, really? So, when does sex matters to you? Because up to now you've not provided a single example.

Trans women aren't men

Define the words men and woman, please.

and you don't know which women are sexual predators either, things will be virtually no different if you ban those whose identity is "man" in terms of danger.

Sexual predators are overwhelming male, though. And we have a better chance of fighting against another woman.

I distinctly remember some of the British statistics being debunked, I will have to try and dig that up. Something about it being based on the number of women convicted for rape but there actually being very few trans women.

Uh, do you know that rape, as defined by British law, is a male-only crime because it requires a penis? Pretty much any "woman" convicted for rape there is guaranteed to be actually male. But that is besides the point because I said nothing about sex crimes in particular. Those numbers were are about all trans identified inmates (minus those who have adquired an Gender Reassigment Certificate because the UK goverment decided not to count them, but sure GC women are being hateful and paranoid when protesting recent changes in language...).

I do think trans women in general should try and unlearn toxic models of socialization and anger, iirc that study mostly studied an older cohort of trans people who's behavior does not necessarily reflect on young trans people today.

I doubt very much younger TW are less prone to violence if all their very current threaths of violence, rape and death (and in some cases actual violence) towards disenting women are any indication.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

what would happen if someone tried to drink from a botle of sulphuric acid because it's labelled as a water

How do you know it's sulphuric acid? I can't say until I actually see the effects of it, it could be doubly mislabeled.

We've gone through this already: males (regardless of how they identify as) are a risk to women because they are physically stronger than us, they can impregnate us, they are more likely to be violent, and they are way more likely to be sexual predators. Declaring yourself a woman wont erase the historical oppression of women.

I've been easily overpowered by women and trans men before, I'm infertile because of HRT and the thought of having biological kids makes me nauseous, I've never been violent because I refuse to be like the men who abused me, and I've never even initiated sexual contact with someone. Me being trans doesn't erase historical oppression, but I'm not evil or a threat, that is the last thing I want to be.

You're allowed to question the actions of any abusive man that may threat you in the men's bathrooms, but that would apply regardless.

I'm still going to feel unsafe and uncomfortable there and I'm going to do what doesn't cause me distress.

So, when does sex matters to you?

To me? When talking to my doctor to plan SRS or other transition care. Or family planning because I would like to be a mother idk. The sex of partners doesn't matter to me at all.

Define the words men and woman, please.

Anyone who is usually perceived to be, or in private feels they are, an adult human male/female.

Sexual predators are overwhelming male, though. And we have a better chance of fighting against another woman.

That doesn't change that sexual predation still simply shouldn't happen. It doesn't make it better because you have a slightly better chance of fighting it off.

Uh, do you know that rape, as defined by British law, is a male-only crime because it requires a penis?

Which is disgusting and sexist. Women can be rapists. And no, you're wrong, even under British law women can be charged with rape as accessories to a male rapist, I will find the numbers but the vast majority of British women incarcerated for rape were not trans.

minus those who have adquired an Gender Reassigment Certificate because the UK goverment decided not to count them

What's wrong with that? They're still horrible criminals.

I've had some very thoughtful convos with trans people my age and a lot agree with me that that angry rhetoric does no one any good. Angry people on twitter are not the majority, as anywhere the loudest and most violent voices dominate sadly.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How do you know it's sulphuric acid? I can't say until I actually see the effects of it, it could be doubly mislabeled.

I know because I am the one making the example up! Whatever, the way you phrased this betrays that you do understand that perception don't trump reality. So, why cannot you apply this when it comes to trans issues.

I've been easily overpowered by women and trans men before, I'm infertile because of HRT and the thought of having biological kids makes me nauseous, I've never been violent because I refuse to be like the men who abused me, and I've never even initiated sexual contact with someone. Me being trans doesn't erase historical oppression, but I'm not evil or a threat, that is the last thing I want to be.

Women have no way to know anything of this about you. Again, barying males from women's bathrooms is nothing personal against you or any male, however said male identify as. We just cannot know wheter a male stranger is safe or not.

That doesn't change that sexual predation still simply shouldn't happen. It doesn't make it better because you have a slightly better chance of fighting it off.

Slightly better is and understatement. And you are forgeting the part where men are way more likely to be sexual predators. C'mon, derrple, there is a reason why you're afraid of men, but not women.

To me? When talking to my doctor to plan SRS or other transition care. Or family planning because I would like to be a mother idk. The sex of partners doesn't matter to me at all.

What? No, I was asking in general. No everything is about you...

Which is disgusting and sexist. Women can be rapists. And no, you're wrong, even under British law women can be charged with rape as accessories to a male rapist, I will find the numbers but the vast majority of British women incarcerated for rape were not trans.

Source?

What's wrong with that? They're still horrible criminals.

Don't you think that collecting data of trans identified people but not counting certain trans identified people alter the statistics?

I've had some very thoughtful convos with trans people my age and a lot agree with me that that angry rhetoric does no one any good. Angry people on twitter are not the majority, as anywhere the loudest and most violent voices dominate sadly.

And yet I've not seen the same level of violence coming from the GC side.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So, why cannot you apply this when it comes to trans issues

Because no one is going to die if they mistake me for a woman -.-

Women have no way to know anything of this about you.

Okay so they can continue to just not know that I'm trans

Source?

https://twitter.com/LaurakBuzz/status/1479030778344493063?t=c8YYHJLZ4skXn2A6a_M5_Q&s=19

Here's an older article on an example: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/mar/17/sarahhall

C'mon, derrple, there is a reason why you're afraid of men, but not women.

I've been abused more by men, men are more dangerous, I simply don't believe trans women should be tarred with that same assumption of danger once we've also been living under threat of it.

Don't you think that collecting data of trans identified people but not counting certain trans identified people alter the statistics?

If it's to stop people from stirring up transphobia it's imo a good thing.

And yet I've not seen the same level of violence coming from the GC side.

No y'all's is a lot more insidious when it happens. Janice Raymond being almost singlehandedly responsible for the rollback of public health coverage for trans care during the Reagan administration. Magdalen Burns who called trans women blackface actors. Helen Joyce trying to buddy up with Matt Walsh to destroy trans people at any cost even the cost of working with a literal fascist misogynist.

Or, the trans woman who was beaten up at a protest in the UK a few months back.

I won't deny that there are violent trans activists and I will never support violence of any kind. Just that GC is far from saintly.

[–]Juniperius 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ofc sex is relevant but for me socially the sex I'm perceived to be is usually more relevant.

One of the major differences between men and women is that for women, our sex, the biological reality of our bodies, is much harder to ignore. It intrudes upon our attention all the time. We have to take it into consideration constantly. For men, their sex is much less salient. The main way sex matters for men is socially; ie, they are accorded all sorts of privileges based on their sex.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I would say that my biology intrudes upon me more than pre-transition but less than most women I know. That doesn't change how I identify or live, though. I'm just saying transitioning is an ongoing maintenance to keep my biology tolerable to me and that it isn't easy. I doubt being out at work would get me treated better either, even if it did I won't risk it.