GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

Again, you all are free to advocate for third spaces

We aren't a third thing, we're men and women. I support third spaces for enbies but it should be up to them.

It's quite arrogant on your friends' part to consent to this in name of all women.

It's quite arrogant on yours to assume you speak for all women either?

Sorry, but when was the votation where it was decided that women's bathrooms will be open from anyone who identifyes as a "women" regardless of biology? I think I missed it, same with the votation where it was decided anyone could be a "woman".

You can't actually believe that there could ever be such a vote, right? People assume I am a woman regardless of how you vote, I don't need permission for that any more than you do.

The fact you all have been using women's bathrooms for decades doesn't mean you are now entitled to them

Neither does it entitle you to say we can't use them though.

baryng ALL males from such places.

  1. I'm not a "male" or at least I won't be cast as such against my will
  2. This will do absolutely nothing to stop predatory men. They should be arrested for what they actually do wrong, not just being in a bathroom, banning trans women will not deter them to any significant effect, plus, banning trans women will hurt more trans women than there would be those potentially helped if that actually deterred a small minority of predators.

Oh, right, women should be believed unless it's about "transwomen" accessing women's spaces

Trans women being in those spaces is not inherently harmful.

It's funny how you all expect sympathy for any potential male abuse you may suffer in men's bathrooms, and yet you all dismiss women's concerns so easily.

It's funny how you all expect trans women to defer to your concerns no matter what and flagellate ourselves because you think we don't deserve to stand up for ourselves, aka exactly how misogynistic men treat women. I have empathy for anyone who suffers abuse in a bathroom but I do not see why means the vast majority should be excluded. All women including trans women deserve public space away from men.

It's about the fact we are opposite sexes regardless of how you view yourself.

So? We don't have to be the same sex to both be women.

[–]Juniperius 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

It's quite arrogant on your friends' part to consent to this in name of all women.

It's quite arrogant on yours to assume you speak for all women either?

That's not how it works. Consent/lack of consent is not symmetrical.

Say I consent to something. You get offended when I make comparisons to sexual activity, so I won't this time. Say I consent to being around you with no mask, but my younger sister does not. My consent does not make it all right for you to potentially expose her to COVID if she does not feel comfortable with you for whatever reason. I can't consent for her. But her lack of consent does mean that you can't come hang out maskless with the two of us. She is not "speaking for me," and it is not arrogant of her to withhold consent even if I would make a different choice in her absence.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

You're trying to apply the idea of personal consent to some sort of collective though. Like I wouldn't use your bathroom but I'll use a public one because you don't have any connection or knowledge of the other strangers using it. There's no consensus, not to mention that if you were to exclude any other kind of woman you'd rightfully be called discriminatory.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

We would absolutely be discriminating against an actual “other kind of” woman if we banned her from female spaces.

So the obvious solution is to actually prove factually that you are an “other kind of woman”.

Not based on your feelings or the notion that some people may think you’re a female by your appearance, not based on a concept as nebulous as gender identity (also can you even prove that woman is a gender at all?), not based on having dysphoria (which doesn’t mean you’re the opposite sex/gender, but only that you feel a disconnect with your own sex/gender), can you actually offer proof that TW are an “other kind” of women? Or even any type of woman at all? Can you link it here? Can you show that it’s an actual fact and not a deep desire for you?

If you can’t do that, none of your arguments hold any water and invading our spaces is inexcusable.

Until you do that, can you explain why it’s acceptable to tell any type of person who can prove they are a woman why we should have no say in whether or not it is acceptable to exclude any type of man/male from female specific spaces?

(And yes I can prove that TW are a type of man)

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

So the obvious solution is to actually prove factually

It's simple I don't believe that womanhood is based on immutable biological fact. I'm a woman despite how I was born and in spite of my biology. Can you show why i should accept your definition that goes against everything I know about myself?

And yes I can prove that TW are a type of man

How? Because we're amab? That means nearly nothing to how I live my life so I will not be defined by "facts" that no one actually measures

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

So then prove that womanhood is not based on immutable biological fact.

Things aren’t true and factual just because you believe them to be so any more than things aren’t true and factual just because you personally don’t see them as such.

It’s not my definition- it’s the definition. How you see yourself has absolutely nothing to do with what words mean.

It’s so self serving to act as if a word that describes and defines literally billions of people doesn’t mean what it means because it doesn’t fit your sense of self.

You’re not amab, you’re a male. Still. Currently. You’re a male person. It doesn’t matter how you live your life, you’re living a male life because you are a male.

People do “measure” sex. Is that not a large part of why you’ve attempted to alter your body to not resemble your actual sex and instead to resemble mine? Like- what are you basing transition on if nobody “measures” sex?

Eta- i asked you to prove, without basing it on your feelings. All you proved is that you cannot do that. And you still don’t get why women feel held hostage by TW. That’s truly fucking terrifying to me, as a woman.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

So then prove that womanhood is not based on immutable biological fact.

Isn't the reality that when deciding whether someone else is a woman or not, people don't ever actually use the definition you claim? They don't use biological fact they use the presentation of it. I don't understand how that isn't enough?

How you see yourself has absolutely nothing to do with what words mean.

I'm deciding what the word means for me.

Like- what are you basing transition on if nobody “measures” sex?

Distress over my body plus not wanting to have to explain myself to people who would insist that I am something merely because of biology.

I'm not asking you to prove you're a woman, you simply are, that's enough for me if you tell me that's how you feel and identify. Like you can claim it's based on biology but really it's based on you feeling that your biology defines you and is meaningful. You could feel very differently--im saying that I don't need anything but your assertion of who you are, whatever justification you have is yours alone. I'm not stopping you from expressing yourself

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I'm not asking you to prove you're a woman, you simply are, that's enough for me if you tell me that's how you feel and identify. Like you can claim it's based on biology but really it's based on you feeling that your biology defines you and is meaningful.

This is so offensive. You are saying that women are not women when we are asleep, under anesthesia, drugged senseless, dead drunk, suffering from Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia, with serious brain damage due to stroke. You are saying that women with the misfortune to have been born with severely low IQ are not women. You are saying that women on their deathbeds whose cognitive abilities and self-awareness have vanished due to CO2 narcosis, the brain and body shutting because of the ravages of terminal illness, and/or because of heavy sedation with morphine, are not women. You are saying that the majority of the world's women are not women because they have who have never heard of the theories of "gender identity" that you hold dear, and which you imperialistically and mistakenly assume are universal and you erroneously think describe something all human beings experience and agree on.

So all the men who have slipped women mickeys and drugs like Qualudes and Rohypnol in order to rape us - none of those men are guilty of raping women, because the at the time the women were unconscious and thus could not "identify as" and "feel like" women?

Women are not women because we feel we are women. It's because we are female. That's it.

Being a woman is not a feeling, an identity, a state of mind or a personal accomplishment. It's just a simple, basic, verifiable fact of material reality. Being a woman is not a matter of self-perception. A person with no capacity for self-perceptions of any kind can still be a woman. All she has to do is be a human who is age 18 or over and female.

I am as much a woman when I am asleep and under anesthesia as when I am awake and my brain is firing on all cylinders. Please stop insulting me and the large portion of the human race who are adult human females with your sexist, misogynistic bollocks. Stop telling women that we have no material reality, that we are merely projections of male fantasies and imaginary ideas in the minds of misogynists.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I am as much a woman when I am asleep and under anesthesia as when I am awake and my brain is firing on all cylinders

So am I! I actually don't get why you keep saying I believe things I don't x(

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

It’s the only logical conclusion to this;

Like you can claim it's based on biology but really it's based on you feeling that your biology defines you and is meaningful.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

People absolutely use the definition wtf are you even talking about?

The only reason anyone would actually see you as a woman (as you claim) is because they’d see you look female, if you didn’t/don’t look female, they’d immediately know you were trans. That’s because they understand that a woman is female. This of course wouldn’t mean you are a woman because you look female, it would simply mean they may mistake you for a female adult human, aka a woman. If they knew you weren’t female, they’d not see you as a woman regardless of your appearance unless they are a part of the minority of people who think TWAW no matter how they look

Presentation isn’t enough because it’s not fact and doesn’t erase fact. You have to withhold information to be seen as a woman. Women don’t have to do that.

What the word means for you doesn’t really matter, the word has a meaning and had a meaning before you and will have a meaning long after you are gone. You are using the word incorrectly. And it’s offensive and causes harm to the very people the word truly defines.

Distress over your body because…. It looks/looked male.

Not having to explain… what, exactly?

Again, if you can’t prove that biology isn’t relevant, it is relevant. You are something, you are many somethings, merely because of your biology. One of those things is male, and adult male humans are men. It’s super simple. You just don’t want it to be for purely selfish reasons.

I don’t feel like or identify as a woman. I am factually biologically literally a woman because the word has a meaning and I fit that meaning. You don’t. Protest all you want, doesn’t change the truth.

It’s not based on me feeling shit. It’s based on me understanding biology and how humans and sex works.

I don’t express myself as a woman, I express myself as Sloane and Sloane just happens to be an adult female human. Womanhood is not a fucking identity, expression, or presentation.

I, and many many others, do need more from you and other TW than just your assertion, precisely because you obviously have no way to back up and prove your assertion.

My womanhood and yours are not the same because even if we both feel and identify as women, only one of us can prove it to be true. The other (you, if that’s unclear) cannot prove it and instead relies on personal feelings. Being a woman has nothing whatsoever to do with personal feelings.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The only reason anyone would actually see you as a woman (as you claim) is because they’d see you look female, if you didn’t/don’t look female, they’d immediately know you were trans. That’s because they understand that a woman is female

Okay yeah that's what they say the definition is but not necessarily how they figure it out socially

it would simply mean they may mistake you for a female adult human, aka a woman

Even if they are mistaken that is socially meaningful because it determines what they think and how they treat me.

unless they are a part of the minority of people who think TWAW no matter how they look

Well I'm grateful that a lot of my friends are in this minority group, I feel safer around people who see me that way no matter how I look

You have to withhold information to be seen as a woman

But I'm still seen as one and that information isn't accessible. I'd love to not have to withhold info but I'll have to get SRS first.

are using the word incorrectly

I just don't get how it's incorrect when many others seem perfectly fine to apply it to me. Seeming like I am is good enough.

Distress over your body because

Because I have anxiety over whether enough aspects of me are passing. Because I hate having male genitalia and looking at myself in the mirror

Not having to explain… what, exactly?

Not having to explain that I'm a woman even if I was born a certain way. All identities are selfish, so I cannot always expect people to acknowledge my feelings as meaningful. So I don't give them the chance, by letting them mistake me

It’s not based on me feeling shit. It’s based on me understanding biology and how humans and sex works.

And for me it's based on understanding that I'm just not a man regardless of what people say. That biology is or will be mutable and that I don't have to be what I'm "supposed" to be

I don’t express myself as a woman, I express myself as Sloane

I mean same I express myself as derrple and part of that includes living as if I am an adult human female

The other (you, if that’s unclear) cannot prove it and instead relies on personal feelings.

Why do you think I'm transitioning then? If how others think of me isn't enough then I'll just need a few years, to get surgery and eventually more.

I get the feeling you don't actually want proof, that there's nothing that would ever convince you I'm a woman. I could come to you with indisputable proof that souls are real and I was going to be born afab but something went wrong, and I'm sure it wouldn't matter. If that's the case, then trans women's solidarity should be on the basis that many of us are perceived as women regardless of fact even if you don't think we actually "are"

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That’s not what they say the definition is. It’s what the definition is. It’s what the fucking word means. Period. And socially they do figure it out based on that word. Again- you have to conceal/withhold information for people who know you to think you’re a woman. You have to drastically alter your body to be seen as a woman alter it by making it look as female as you possibly can. This just reinforces what I’m saying. Someone mistaking you for a woman and you not being honest doesn’t make you a woman. It only makes you a man who looks like a woman. And only then, if someone doesn’t know the obvious tells that TW can’t alter. If someone knows to look at certain parts of your body because they really really need to defect TW for some reason, they’d know. And if they told anyone and it got around- you’d no longer be seen as a woman. This is perhaps a ridiculous hypothetical- but it could happen because it’s not a hypothetical that’s not based on things we can’t perceive or that could reasonably happen.

SRS is not going to make you indistinguishable lmao. Neovaginas don’t look or function like vaginas. The “vaginal canal” isn’t even in the same place. Even if everything else is perfect, that alone gives you away unless someone doesn’t know what a vagina looks like.

Others seeing you as a woman because they don’t know you aren’t one doesn’t make you one. There’s a reason you don’t tell them you’re trans. That’s proving my point. You know if they knew, they’d see you differently. If you thought you were a woman, you would have no problem admitting to being trans because that wouldn’t make you not a woman. The fact that you withhold that info proves you know what I’m saying is true. So just because you assume others don’t know (as I said on the deleted post, it’s possible they do but just haven’t said anything) doesn’t change what I’m saying. It means you can pass. The concept of passing relies on people not knowing you’re passing but knowing what a woman is. Without the understanding that woman= adult female human, it wouldn’t matter if you pass or don’t.

You simply can’t live as something you aren’t. You can live as someone pretending to be something you aren’t. Many people do, trans or not.

I think you’re transitioning because you have dysphoria. A mental illness that literally reinforces the fact that you are not a woman.