GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

you all have decided without asking women of course, you HAVE to use at all costs.

I'm just not going to put myself last at all costs anymore. Trans people don't have to sacrifice ourselves for you either.

Also still I don't understand what you mean by asking women, who exactly? Bc I've had women drag me into bathrooms before and tell me I was being silly.

But, no, you all do NOT want to use third spaces under any circunstance

Because I will not be told what I supposedly am and where I'm "supposed" to pee, yeah. And because a third space would be more likely to make someone question I'm trans and I have a right to live a private life. I'm going to stand up for myself and other trans people no matter how much I'm told to just give in. Would you use one regularly or would you feel you should be able to use the bathroom that's for you? Idk I will use it if nothing else is available but not if I've been forced to

A bathroom that you don't own and that trans people have been using for decades is not your boundary, you can't just declare things as being your boundary and expect everyone to accept your ownership?? Like, your person, your body, those are for you to set what you're comfortable with 100% but kicking an entire group out of a bathroom simply because you don't like some of us is just bigotry. Neither of us should get to decide how each other lives, if someone is harassing you or making you feel unsafe then ofc I support you, heck I'd probably support you if there were an incident and it were your word against theirs because women should be believed.

Like, wouldn't you say that women's bathrooms are for all women and girls regardless of race, creed, sexuality, etc? Bc if so that's exactly how I feel, you just do not include me in that. That doesn't mean I'm just going to assume you must be absolutely correct.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

I'm just not going to put myself last at all costs anymore. Trans people don't have to sacrifice ourselves for you either.

No one is asking you to sacrifice yourself. Again, you all are free to advocate for third spaces. I doubt youwould find much oppossition to this solution besides yourselves.

Also still I don't understand what you mean by asking women, who exactly? Bc I've had women drag me into bathrooms before and tell me I was being silly.

The fact that your friends are okay with you using the women's bathrooms doesn't mean ALL women are fine with this. It's quite arrogant on your friends' part to consent to this in name of all women.

Would you use one regularly or would you feel you should be able to use the bathroom that's for you?

Sorry, but when was the votation where it was decided that women's bathrooms will be open from anyone who identifyes as a "women" regardless of biology? I think I missed it, same with the votation where it was decided anyone could be a "woman".

A bathroom that you don't own and that trans people have been using for decades is not your boundary, you can't just declare things as being your boundary and expect everyone to accept your ownership??

The fact you all have been using women's bathrooms for decades doesn't mean you are now entitled to them. The fact is they weren't meant for you all back then, either. If you all find more opposition for your actions right now is because your actions are not a secret anymore as there are way more males who claim to be "women" and because of the internet.

Like, your person, your body, those are for you to set what you're comfortable with 100% but kicking an entire group out of a bathroom simply because you don't like some of us is just bigotry.

Why do you think public bathrooms and other places where vulnerability is expected are sex-seggregated to begin with? It's not a social club. It's about and privacity because lots of women are not confortable sharing them with male strangers. It's about safety because men are physically stronger and are more likely to be violent and most sex predators are men. Women cannot know which males are safe or not, so the best prevention strategy is baryng ALL males from such places. You're taking our "no" too personally, but this is NOT about you. Allowing special exeptions for certains males because they feel like "women" defeats the purpose of sex-seggregation.

if someone is harassing you or making you feel unsafe then ofc I support you, heck I'd probably support you if there were an incident and it were your word against theirs because women should be believed.

Oh, right, women should be believed unless it's about "transwomen" accessing women's spaces. It's funny how you all expect sympathy for any potential male abuse you may suffer in men's bathrooms, and yet you all dismiss women's concerns so easily. You all insist you NEED to be away from the men for your own safety, but women must settle for your "support" after an avoidable incident happened.

Like, wouldn't you say that women's bathrooms are for all women and girls regardless of race, creed, sexuality, etc? Bc if so that's exactly how I feel, you just do not include me in that.

It's not about whether I want to include you or not. It's about the fact we are opposite sexes regardless of how you view yourself.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

Again, you all are free to advocate for third spaces

We aren't a third thing, we're men and women. I support third spaces for enbies but it should be up to them.

It's quite arrogant on your friends' part to consent to this in name of all women.

It's quite arrogant on yours to assume you speak for all women either?

Sorry, but when was the votation where it was decided that women's bathrooms will be open from anyone who identifyes as a "women" regardless of biology? I think I missed it, same with the votation where it was decided anyone could be a "woman".

You can't actually believe that there could ever be such a vote, right? People assume I am a woman regardless of how you vote, I don't need permission for that any more than you do.

The fact you all have been using women's bathrooms for decades doesn't mean you are now entitled to them

Neither does it entitle you to say we can't use them though.

baryng ALL males from such places.

  1. I'm not a "male" or at least I won't be cast as such against my will
  2. This will do absolutely nothing to stop predatory men. They should be arrested for what they actually do wrong, not just being in a bathroom, banning trans women will not deter them to any significant effect, plus, banning trans women will hurt more trans women than there would be those potentially helped if that actually deterred a small minority of predators.

Oh, right, women should be believed unless it's about "transwomen" accessing women's spaces

Trans women being in those spaces is not inherently harmful.

It's funny how you all expect sympathy for any potential male abuse you may suffer in men's bathrooms, and yet you all dismiss women's concerns so easily.

It's funny how you all expect trans women to defer to your concerns no matter what and flagellate ourselves because you think we don't deserve to stand up for ourselves, aka exactly how misogynistic men treat women. I have empathy for anyone who suffers abuse in a bathroom but I do not see why means the vast majority should be excluded. All women including trans women deserve public space away from men.

It's about the fact we are opposite sexes regardless of how you view yourself.

So? We don't have to be the same sex to both be women.

[–]Juniperius 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

It's quite arrogant on your friends' part to consent to this in name of all women.

It's quite arrogant on yours to assume you speak for all women either?

That's not how it works. Consent/lack of consent is not symmetrical.

Say I consent to something. You get offended when I make comparisons to sexual activity, so I won't this time. Say I consent to being around you with no mask, but my younger sister does not. My consent does not make it all right for you to potentially expose her to COVID if she does not feel comfortable with you for whatever reason. I can't consent for her. But her lack of consent does mean that you can't come hang out maskless with the two of us. She is not "speaking for me," and it is not arrogant of her to withhold consent even if I would make a different choice in her absence.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

You're trying to apply the idea of personal consent to some sort of collective though. Like I wouldn't use your bathroom but I'll use a public one because you don't have any connection or knowledge of the other strangers using it. There's no consensus, not to mention that if you were to exclude any other kind of woman you'd rightfully be called discriminatory.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

We would absolutely be discriminating against an actual “other kind of” woman if we banned her from female spaces.

So the obvious solution is to actually prove factually that you are an “other kind of woman”.

Not based on your feelings or the notion that some people may think you’re a female by your appearance, not based on a concept as nebulous as gender identity (also can you even prove that woman is a gender at all?), not based on having dysphoria (which doesn’t mean you’re the opposite sex/gender, but only that you feel a disconnect with your own sex/gender), can you actually offer proof that TW are an “other kind” of women? Or even any type of woman at all? Can you link it here? Can you show that it’s an actual fact and not a deep desire for you?

If you can’t do that, none of your arguments hold any water and invading our spaces is inexcusable.

Until you do that, can you explain why it’s acceptable to tell any type of person who can prove they are a woman why we should have no say in whether or not it is acceptable to exclude any type of man/male from female specific spaces?

(And yes I can prove that TW are a type of man)

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

So the obvious solution is to actually prove factually

It's simple I don't believe that womanhood is based on immutable biological fact. I'm a woman despite how I was born and in spite of my biology. Can you show why i should accept your definition that goes against everything I know about myself?

And yes I can prove that TW are a type of man

How? Because we're amab? That means nearly nothing to how I live my life so I will not be defined by "facts" that no one actually measures

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

So then prove that womanhood is not based on immutable biological fact.

Things aren’t true and factual just because you believe them to be so any more than things aren’t true and factual just because you personally don’t see them as such.

It’s not my definition- it’s the definition. How you see yourself has absolutely nothing to do with what words mean.

It’s so self serving to act as if a word that describes and defines literally billions of people doesn’t mean what it means because it doesn’t fit your sense of self.

You’re not amab, you’re a male. Still. Currently. You’re a male person. It doesn’t matter how you live your life, you’re living a male life because you are a male.

People do “measure” sex. Is that not a large part of why you’ve attempted to alter your body to not resemble your actual sex and instead to resemble mine? Like- what are you basing transition on if nobody “measures” sex?

Eta- i asked you to prove, without basing it on your feelings. All you proved is that you cannot do that. And you still don’t get why women feel held hostage by TW. That’s truly fucking terrifying to me, as a woman.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

So then prove that womanhood is not based on immutable biological fact.

Isn't the reality that when deciding whether someone else is a woman or not, people don't ever actually use the definition you claim? They don't use biological fact they use the presentation of it. I don't understand how that isn't enough?

How you see yourself has absolutely nothing to do with what words mean.

I'm deciding what the word means for me.

Like- what are you basing transition on if nobody “measures” sex?

Distress over my body plus not wanting to have to explain myself to people who would insist that I am something merely because of biology.

I'm not asking you to prove you're a woman, you simply are, that's enough for me if you tell me that's how you feel and identify. Like you can claim it's based on biology but really it's based on you feeling that your biology defines you and is meaningful. You could feel very differently--im saying that I don't need anything but your assertion of who you are, whatever justification you have is yours alone. I'm not stopping you from expressing yourself

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I'm not asking you to prove you're a woman, you simply are, that's enough for me if you tell me that's how you feel and identify. Like you can claim it's based on biology but really it's based on you feeling that your biology defines you and is meaningful.

This is so offensive. You are saying that women are not women when we are asleep, under anesthesia, drugged senseless, dead drunk, suffering from Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia, with serious brain damage due to stroke. You are saying that women with the misfortune to have been born with severely low IQ are not women. You are saying that women on their deathbeds whose cognitive abilities and self-awareness have vanished due to CO2 narcosis, the brain and body shutting because of the ravages of terminal illness, and/or because of heavy sedation with morphine, are not women. You are saying that the majority of the world's women are not women because they have who have never heard of the theories of "gender identity" that you hold dear, and which you imperialistically and mistakenly assume are universal and you erroneously think describe something all human beings experience and agree on.

So all the men who have slipped women mickeys and drugs like Qualudes and Rohypnol in order to rape us - none of those men are guilty of raping women, because the at the time the women were unconscious and thus could not "identify as" and "feel like" women?

Women are not women because we feel we are women. It's because we are female. That's it.

Being a woman is not a feeling, an identity, a state of mind or a personal accomplishment. It's just a simple, basic, verifiable fact of material reality. Being a woman is not a matter of self-perception. A person with no capacity for self-perceptions of any kind can still be a woman. All she has to do is be a human who is age 18 or over and female.

I am as much a woman when I am asleep and under anesthesia as when I am awake and my brain is firing on all cylinders. Please stop insulting me and the large portion of the human race who are adult human females with your sexist, misogynistic bollocks. Stop telling women that we have no material reality, that we are merely projections of male fantasies and imaginary ideas in the minds of misogynists.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

People absolutely use the definition wtf are you even talking about?

The only reason anyone would actually see you as a woman (as you claim) is because they’d see you look female, if you didn’t/don’t look female, they’d immediately know you were trans. That’s because they understand that a woman is female. This of course wouldn’t mean you are a woman because you look female, it would simply mean they may mistake you for a female adult human, aka a woman. If they knew you weren’t female, they’d not see you as a woman regardless of your appearance unless they are a part of the minority of people who think TWAW no matter how they look

Presentation isn’t enough because it’s not fact and doesn’t erase fact. You have to withhold information to be seen as a woman. Women don’t have to do that.

What the word means for you doesn’t really matter, the word has a meaning and had a meaning before you and will have a meaning long after you are gone. You are using the word incorrectly. And it’s offensive and causes harm to the very people the word truly defines.

Distress over your body because…. It looks/looked male.

Not having to explain… what, exactly?

Again, if you can’t prove that biology isn’t relevant, it is relevant. You are something, you are many somethings, merely because of your biology. One of those things is male, and adult male humans are men. It’s super simple. You just don’t want it to be for purely selfish reasons.

I don’t feel like or identify as a woman. I am factually biologically literally a woman because the word has a meaning and I fit that meaning. You don’t. Protest all you want, doesn’t change the truth.

It’s not based on me feeling shit. It’s based on me understanding biology and how humans and sex works.

I don’t express myself as a woman, I express myself as Sloane and Sloane just happens to be an adult female human. Womanhood is not a fucking identity, expression, or presentation.

I, and many many others, do need more from you and other TW than just your assertion, precisely because you obviously have no way to back up and prove your assertion.

My womanhood and yours are not the same because even if we both feel and identify as women, only one of us can prove it to be true. The other (you, if that’s unclear) cannot prove it and instead relies on personal feelings. Being a woman has nothing whatsoever to do with personal feelings.