GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

Both these questions are based on the assumption that GC users of women's restrooms (who are presumably female) can tell just by looking that TW are TW sometimes

It doesn't mean anything more than "sometimes", what?

If TW always passed,

That wasn't claimed so

he's an attention-seeking "character" who's a bit of an oddball like Corporal Klinger;

Just a total aside that I really hate that show because it was an insult my mom used against me.

Such as because he's a drag queen or performer who does British-style panto

Idk what to tell u if you can't tell the difference between drag or panto as a performance and trans people wearing normal clothes and makeup. I don't discount the possibility that someone who isn't trans somehow passes, uses the women's room and also has ulterior or suspicious motives, but that's a totally separate concern from passing trans people using the bathroom.

tell the difference between TW and W at least some of the time

Please stop putting words into the mouths of QT ppl asking questions. I think most trans people have no trouble saying that there are scenarios where trans women can be distinguished. Just that for passing trans people what would be required to make that distinction would violate our privacy and you don't have a right to do that. I obviously wouldn't pass if someone examines my genitalia, but no one has the right to do that without my consent

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

Idk what to tell u if you can't tell the difference between drag or panto as a performance and trans people wearing normal clothes and makeup.

I didn't say I personally couldn't tell the difference. I just gave examples of situations where males might be dressing and trying to appear "as women" and there'd be no way for someone who casually encounters them briefly to tell what their motives and reasons are. A stranger could guess, but there'd be no way to know for sure without inquiring.

Also, the fact of the matter is, there's often a huge discrepancy between what many male "trans people" regard as "wearing normal clothes and makeup" and what the rest of the world thinks is "wearing normal clothes and makeup."

For example, lots of TW dress in OTT, hyper sexualized ways; they wear outfits and makeup that most women and girls would not wear, unless those women and girls are porn actors, strippers, street prostitutes, Only Fans workers, Kardashians or entertainers like the rap artists like Cardi B or singer and dancer Jennifer Lopez.

Similarly, many middle-aged and older TW dress in ways that actual female people the same age do not - that we'd never be caught dead in, in fact. I've seen lots of TW in their 50s, 60s and 70s out and about in very short mini skirts, thigh highs and revealing tops that the vast majority of women their age would never, ever wear because the stage in our lives when we could get away with such a look ended many years ago. Similarly, some older TW like Sophie Grace Chappell and that infamous Stephonknee person who "identifies as" a child of 6 wear the clothing, makeup and hairstyles of little girls - Mary Janes, ankle socks, pig tails, party dresses with puffy sleeves, and pouffed-out skirts with crinolines.

I think most trans people have no trouble saying that there are scenarios where trans women can be distinguished. Just that for passing trans people what would be required to make that distinction would violate our privacy and you don't have a right to do that.

Maybe some trans people say that, but a lot of of TP and other gender identity ideologues refuse to acknowledge that there are any scenarios where TW can be distinguished. In fact, many TP and their allies say it's transphobic to acknowledge that some TW are clockable as males - even when they are naked and waving their penises and balls in girls' and women's faces. That's what happened in the Wi Spa case. Women who objected to seeing a naked adult male with a semi-erect penis in the women-only area of the spa were told time and again that serial sex offender Darren Merragher is a woman and thus Merragher's semi-hard penis on display was/is a woman's penis, because Merragher "identifies as" a TW - and TWAW.

It's also happened in the case of the many TW whose mug shots and other photos have appeared in the press due to them being arrested or convicted of violent crimes like murder, attempted murder, assaults with axes, hammers and knives and sex crimes like rape, possession of images showing children being sexually abused, and indecent exposure. Trans people and allies constantly say that observing and declaring "that's not a woman" in the case of TPs convicted or accused of heinous crimes is just as bad an offense as the many murders, assaults, rapes and other sex crimes these TPs have committed. In fact, some TPs and their allies say that "misgendering" of TPs who've committed criminal acts against other people - including child sex abuse and the rape and murder of women - is a far worse offense than the horrible crimes they've committed.

Just that for passing trans people what would be required to make that distinction would violate our privacy and you don't have a right to do that.

But the scenario that Genderbender brought up was about a women's restroom. By going into such spaces, TW are violating the privacy - and jeopardizing the safety and denying the dignity - of female human beings. Where do you get the impression that you and other males like you have the right to do this?

That's a serious question. I think if you look into it, you'll find that the right that some males believe they have to use women's restrooms on account of their gender identity claims and gender presentation is a right that some males decided simply to declare and take for themselves, without ever bothering to ask women if it was okay with us. Now after the fact, males who arrogantly assumed that women's restrooms and other female spaces are theirs for the taking are finding out that lots of women are not okay with this kind of male interloping - and this discovery is causing you/them to feel outraged. It never occurred to you/them that women would push back and say "this is not your space, you do not belong here" because virtually none of you gave a moment's thought to the issue of how your actions would affect female people. In the calculations of most TW, the feelings and perspectives of actual women are never factored in, because most TW see us as objects, inferiors, and lowly service providers whose purpose in life is to center and cater to males - not as full-fledged human beings with needs and perspectives of our own who deserve rights as much as anyone else.

But even if TW had bothered to ask permission to horn in on female spaces, the fundamental problem is that especially as more and more people declare they are trans - and being trans has no concrete or fixed definition - it becomes harder and harder for the world to agree on exactly who counts as

passing trans people

Especially "passing trans women." However, the fact that you yourself use the phrase "passing trans people" shows that even you admit there are some who don't pass even in your own eyes. So the thorny issue at the heart of the matter remains: when people don't see eye to eye, whose perceptions count? Why should the idealized images that TW see when they gaze at themselves in their mirrors take precedence over what other people see when they encounter them out and about?

More to the point, why should the claims of male persons who say that they are now women be taken more seriously and given more weight and credence than the claims of actual women who say no they/you are not?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (44 children)

Realized u edited after I replied, sorry!

It never occurred to you/them that women would push back and say "this is not your space" because none of you thought about how your actions w

No I actually think about it all the time to the point where it makes it difficult for me to do anything. Tell me, who am I supposed to ask for permission to be a woman? You? Sorry but I've spent years asking and the only answer I ever get is that I can't, I get told to just be a gnc man, etc--basically impossible answers that I can't hope to adhere to without hurting myself. The expectation for me from y'all is that I should be totally selfless and be a woman in my home but conform in public and I just won't do that, it's not a fair expectation to place. I care about whether other people are comfortable around me but I'm not going to flagellate myself to appease them. I know I'm a woman, if you think differently I'm sorry and I'll do my best to wash my hands as fast as possible so you don't have to look at my ugly mug too long

Why should the idealized images that TW see when they gaze at themselves in their mirrors

Lol when I look in the mirror I see a nasty goblin man, far from an idealized image of myself. I've had to reinforce to myself that I am never an accurate judge of my appearance and to rely on others, because no one around me ever sees me that way and it's just my dysphoric brain being how it is.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (43 children)

Sorry but I've spent years asking and the only answer I ever get is that I can't, I get told to just be a gnc man, etc--basically impossible answers that I can't hope to adhere to without hurting myself. The expectation for me from y'all is that I should be totally selfless and be a woman in my home but conform in public and I just won't do that, it's not a fair expectation to place. I care about whether other people are comfortable around me but I'm not going to flagellate myself to appease them.

So, instead, you expect women be the ones who must disregard our own comfort and safety so to appease people like you. So you all keep accessing women's bathrooms, which you all have decided without asking women of course, you HAVE to use at all costs. It's women who must sacrifice themselves for the benefict of you all.

If you all don't want to use the men's bathrooms (and other sex-seggregated spaces), then you all can advocate for third spaces. But, no, you all do NOT want to use third spaces under any circunstance because that it's not "validating" enough or whatever. No, you all must use the women's bathrooms regardless of how women feel about this. And, of course, women are the ones who are being mean by standing up for their own boundaries and no you all for feeling entintled to use spaces that never were meant for you all.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (42 children)

you all have decided without asking women of course, you HAVE to use at all costs.

I'm just not going to put myself last at all costs anymore. Trans people don't have to sacrifice ourselves for you either.

Also still I don't understand what you mean by asking women, who exactly? Bc I've had women drag me into bathrooms before and tell me I was being silly.

But, no, you all do NOT want to use third spaces under any circunstance

Because I will not be told what I supposedly am and where I'm "supposed" to pee, yeah. And because a third space would be more likely to make someone question I'm trans and I have a right to live a private life. I'm going to stand up for myself and other trans people no matter how much I'm told to just give in. Would you use one regularly or would you feel you should be able to use the bathroom that's for you? Idk I will use it if nothing else is available but not if I've been forced to

A bathroom that you don't own and that trans people have been using for decades is not your boundary, you can't just declare things as being your boundary and expect everyone to accept your ownership?? Like, your person, your body, those are for you to set what you're comfortable with 100% but kicking an entire group out of a bathroom simply because you don't like some of us is just bigotry. Neither of us should get to decide how each other lives, if someone is harassing you or making you feel unsafe then ofc I support you, heck I'd probably support you if there were an incident and it were your word against theirs because women should be believed.

Like, wouldn't you say that women's bathrooms are for all women and girls regardless of race, creed, sexuality, etc? Bc if so that's exactly how I feel, you just do not include me in that. That doesn't mean I'm just going to assume you must be absolutely correct.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

I'm just not going to put myself last at all costs anymore. Trans people don't have to sacrifice ourselves for you either.

No one is asking you to sacrifice yourself. Again, you all are free to advocate for third spaces. I doubt youwould find much oppossition to this solution besides yourselves.

Also still I don't understand what you mean by asking women, who exactly? Bc I've had women drag me into bathrooms before and tell me I was being silly.

The fact that your friends are okay with you using the women's bathrooms doesn't mean ALL women are fine with this. It's quite arrogant on your friends' part to consent to this in name of all women.

Would you use one regularly or would you feel you should be able to use the bathroom that's for you?

Sorry, but when was the votation where it was decided that women's bathrooms will be open from anyone who identifyes as a "women" regardless of biology? I think I missed it, same with the votation where it was decided anyone could be a "woman".

A bathroom that you don't own and that trans people have been using for decades is not your boundary, you can't just declare things as being your boundary and expect everyone to accept your ownership??

The fact you all have been using women's bathrooms for decades doesn't mean you are now entitled to them. The fact is they weren't meant for you all back then, either. If you all find more opposition for your actions right now is because your actions are not a secret anymore as there are way more males who claim to be "women" and because of the internet.

Like, your person, your body, those are for you to set what you're comfortable with 100% but kicking an entire group out of a bathroom simply because you don't like some of us is just bigotry.

Why do you think public bathrooms and other places where vulnerability is expected are sex-seggregated to begin with? It's not a social club. It's about and privacity because lots of women are not confortable sharing them with male strangers. It's about safety because men are physically stronger and are more likely to be violent and most sex predators are men. Women cannot know which males are safe or not, so the best prevention strategy is baryng ALL males from such places. You're taking our "no" too personally, but this is NOT about you. Allowing special exeptions for certains males because they feel like "women" defeats the purpose of sex-seggregation.

if someone is harassing you or making you feel unsafe then ofc I support you, heck I'd probably support you if there were an incident and it were your word against theirs because women should be believed.

Oh, right, women should be believed unless it's about "transwomen" accessing women's spaces. It's funny how you all expect sympathy for any potential male abuse you may suffer in men's bathrooms, and yet you all dismiss women's concerns so easily. You all insist you NEED to be away from the men for your own safety, but women must settle for your "support" after an avoidable incident happened.

Like, wouldn't you say that women's bathrooms are for all women and girls regardless of race, creed, sexuality, etc? Bc if so that's exactly how I feel, you just do not include me in that.

It's not about whether I want to include you or not. It's about the fact we are opposite sexes regardless of how you view yourself.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

Again, you all are free to advocate for third spaces

We aren't a third thing, we're men and women. I support third spaces for enbies but it should be up to them.

It's quite arrogant on your friends' part to consent to this in name of all women.

It's quite arrogant on yours to assume you speak for all women either?

Sorry, but when was the votation where it was decided that women's bathrooms will be open from anyone who identifyes as a "women" regardless of biology? I think I missed it, same with the votation where it was decided anyone could be a "woman".

You can't actually believe that there could ever be such a vote, right? People assume I am a woman regardless of how you vote, I don't need permission for that any more than you do.

The fact you all have been using women's bathrooms for decades doesn't mean you are now entitled to them

Neither does it entitle you to say we can't use them though.

baryng ALL males from such places.

  1. I'm not a "male" or at least I won't be cast as such against my will
  2. This will do absolutely nothing to stop predatory men. They should be arrested for what they actually do wrong, not just being in a bathroom, banning trans women will not deter them to any significant effect, plus, banning trans women will hurt more trans women than there would be those potentially helped if that actually deterred a small minority of predators.

Oh, right, women should be believed unless it's about "transwomen" accessing women's spaces

Trans women being in those spaces is not inherently harmful.

It's funny how you all expect sympathy for any potential male abuse you may suffer in men's bathrooms, and yet you all dismiss women's concerns so easily.

It's funny how you all expect trans women to defer to your concerns no matter what and flagellate ourselves because you think we don't deserve to stand up for ourselves, aka exactly how misogynistic men treat women. I have empathy for anyone who suffers abuse in a bathroom but I do not see why means the vast majority should be excluded. All women including trans women deserve public space away from men.

It's about the fact we are opposite sexes regardless of how you view yourself.

So? We don't have to be the same sex to both be women.

[–]Juniperius 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

It's quite arrogant on your friends' part to consent to this in name of all women.

It's quite arrogant on yours to assume you speak for all women either?

That's not how it works. Consent/lack of consent is not symmetrical.

Say I consent to something. You get offended when I make comparisons to sexual activity, so I won't this time. Say I consent to being around you with no mask, but my younger sister does not. My consent does not make it all right for you to potentially expose her to COVID if she does not feel comfortable with you for whatever reason. I can't consent for her. But her lack of consent does mean that you can't come hang out maskless with the two of us. She is not "speaking for me," and it is not arrogant of her to withhold consent even if I would make a different choice in her absence.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

You're trying to apply the idea of personal consent to some sort of collective though. Like I wouldn't use your bathroom but I'll use a public one because you don't have any connection or knowledge of the other strangers using it. There's no consensus, not to mention that if you were to exclude any other kind of woman you'd rightfully be called discriminatory.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

We would absolutely be discriminating against an actual “other kind of” woman if we banned her from female spaces.

So the obvious solution is to actually prove factually that you are an “other kind of woman”.

Not based on your feelings or the notion that some people may think you’re a female by your appearance, not based on a concept as nebulous as gender identity (also can you even prove that woman is a gender at all?), not based on having dysphoria (which doesn’t mean you’re the opposite sex/gender, but only that you feel a disconnect with your own sex/gender), can you actually offer proof that TW are an “other kind” of women? Or even any type of woman at all? Can you link it here? Can you show that it’s an actual fact and not a deep desire for you?

If you can’t do that, none of your arguments hold any water and invading our spaces is inexcusable.

Until you do that, can you explain why it’s acceptable to tell any type of person who can prove they are a woman why we should have no say in whether or not it is acceptable to exclude any type of man/male from female specific spaces?

(And yes I can prove that TW are a type of man)

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It's about the fact we are opposite sexes regardless of how you view yourself.

So? We don't have to be the same sex to both be women.

Of course we would have to be the same sex to both be women! Saying you're a woman doesn't make you one just like saying you're a bird doesn't make you a bird, either. I'm not making any moral judgement by stating such facts. It's not my fault if you decide to interpret this as an attack against you because of your own views on women and men, and because of your self-esteem issues.

On the other hand, I find insulting your insistence that we are both woman and that sex is irrelevant. Once you decide that the definition of woman is not rooted in biology, all that is left are sex-based roles and stereotypes and I refuse to be defined on such terms. And I remind you that you have yet to explain in what way you are a "woman" beyond your own wishes, and why it's so important for you to reject your own sex.

As for what is harm in women giving up women's spaces like public bathrooms in order to accomodate people like you, well, here you have some examples:

Single-sex toilets needed to overcome girls' barriers to education,' says Unesco

Unisex changing rooms put women at danger of sexual assault, data reveals

Women are losing access to public toilets 'by stealth' amid a boom in gender-neutral loos, say experts

School girls rejecting mixed toilets over boys’ bad behaviour

Professor Blasts 'Unacceptable' Gender-Neutral Bathroom With Man at Urinal

Father Claims Daughter Was Sexually Assaulted by Male Student in Girls' Washroom at School

Male Student Filmed Women in “All Gender” Washroom

Lia Thomas' UPenn teammate tells how the trans swimmer doesn't always cover up her male genitals when changing and their concerns go ignored by their coach

LAPD Officer Blamed a Mother for Exposing her Daughter to Male Genitals at Wi Spa

Five Women Have Filed Police Reports Alleging Indecent Exposure at Wi Spa

Patient safety fears as NHS allows trans sex offenders in female-only wards

NHS 'gaslighting' patients over trans women on female-only wards, nurse claims

Hospital told police a woman who complained she was raped that only other women were present on the single-sex ward - before admitting after a YEAR that one was trans

Protecting men at the women’s shelter

‘Bigoted people may be challenged’: Comments by trans head of Edinburgh Rape Crisis sparks controversy

Why was convicted paedophile allowed to move to a female jail?

Male-Bodied Rapists Are Being Imprisoned With Women. Why Do so Few People Care?

Prison officers demand guidelines on transgender inmates

Female prisoners at greater risk of sexual assault by transgender inmates, High Court hears

High Court rules transgender women CAN go into female prisons: Judges rule government's policy is lawful despite claims from inmate it raised risk of sex attacks

Women prisoners who call transgender inmates ‘he’ or ‘him’ face extra jail time

Trans-Identified Male Inmates Committing Sexual Assault in Women's Jails, Female Ex-Inmate Claims

Female Prison Staff Called "Transphobic" for Discomfort with Trans-Identified Male Inmates

Two inmates at all-women's New Jersey jail are PREGNANT after both had sex with transgender prisoners: ACLU won battle to house 27 trans inmates there

UK: Women Recount Staff Denying there were Men in Single-Sex Hospital Spaces

Transgender Inmate Convicted Of Raping Female Prisoner at Women’s Facility

Women Being ‘Punished’ For Complaining About Male Transfers: Inmate in California Women’s Prison

I can look up more examples if you want, including ones that are only about public bathrooms.

Edit: typos

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Saying you're a woman doesn't make you one just like saying you're a bird doesn't make you a bird, either.

If I said I was a bird and got people to perceive me as a bird yeah I'd be a bird. I'm just not really feeling strongly on that lol

that we are both woman and that sex is irrelevant

Ofc sex is relevant but for me socially the sex I'm perceived to be is usually more relevant. I'm a woman because everyone from strangers to coworkers thinks I am and that matches with what I feel I am.

I've never needed a reason "why" to reject my sex. I wouldn't even really care if I found out why, honestly, what would it change? If a doctor or God came down and told me that I only feel this way because of a b & c, well, abc is a part of me and I wouldn't just feel different.

It could be the case that dysphoria can be caused by trauma, or misplaced gnc expression, or anything -- I'm still trans.

Also uhm, you can't reasonably expect me to respond to every single article in that right x( it will take me a while but fwiw

There have also been studies done showing that trans people using the bathroom did not cause any issues: https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

I don't think gender neutral toilets are a good idea so I'm not going against the articles you shared about them. A third, single stall room would be nice, but trans people have been using the room that matches our expression for a long time and will continue to just fine.

As for prisoners/criminals/people who have done awful things: 1. Obviously I do not support their crimes and I hope those they hurt receive help and love 2. If you want to talk about prison placement we can but idk how it's the same thing as bathrooms? Unless you think most people using bathrooms are criminals 3. Idk how I'm personally responsible for the actions of lia Thomas or r*pists or why their behavior or crimes should mean I'm treated the same

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Being mistaken for something is NOT the same as being that something! And yes, the difference between the two DOES matter. For example, sulphuric acid is a colorless and odorless liquid. If someone labeled a botle of it as water and, a while later, another person tried to drink it, what do you think it would happen?

Also uhm, you can't reasonably expect me to respond to every single article in that right x( it will take me a while but fwiw

Take all the time you need to read them. I can wait and there is no much activity in this sub, anyway.

There have also been studies done showing that trans people using the bathroom did not cause any issues:

What did happen with "women should be believed"? Also, I don't think an study on this issue made by the ACLU is trustworthy giving that they are set on not allowing American citizens to learn how many males who identify as trans have been transfered to women's prisons. If TWAW and they don't pose a risk to women, what is there to hide?

I don't think gender neutral toilets are a good idea so I'm not going against the articles you shared about them.

Allowing special exeptions for certain males is basically making women's toilets into mixed toilets. By allowing certain males in, you are making those places open for ALL males. And let's not forget women are NOT allowed to question the "gender identity" of any male wandering into women's spaces regardless of how much like a typical man he looks like.

A third, single stall room would be nice, but trans people have been using the room that matches our expression for a long time and will continue to just fine.

You're assuming women never have a problem with this before.

As for prisoners/criminals/people who have done awful things: 1. Obviously I do not support their crimes and I hope those they hurt receive help and love 2. If you want to talk about prison placement we can but idk how it's the same thing as bathrooms? Unless you think most people using bathrooms are criminals

I know this thread is about public restrooms in particular (because genderbender won't discuss any other space...), but I think other sex-segregated spaces are also relevant when discussing whether "gender identity" is more relevant than sex or not.

Idk how I'm personally responsible for the actions of lia Thomas or r*pists or why their behavior or crimes should mean I'm treated the same

I never claimed you were. Again, you are taking our "no" too personally despite that nothing of this is because of you in particular. Like I told you before, the best prevention strategy is barying all men from places certain places like bathrooms or changing rooms not because all men are sexual predators, but because women have no way to know which men are. Somehow you are able to understand that you don't want to be around regular males, yet you are unable to understand why women want to be away from all males regardless of how said males identify as.

BTW, according to this study, even after full "medical transition", TW retain male patterns of criminality. Also, according to official numbers from the UK, around 80% of trans identified inmates are "transwomen"; in contrast, women represent around the 4% of all British inmates.

Edit: typos

[–]Juniperius 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ofc sex is relevant but for me socially the sex I'm perceived to be is usually more relevant.

One of the major differences between men and women is that for women, our sex, the biological reality of our bodies, is much harder to ignore. It intrudes upon our attention all the time. We have to take it into consideration constantly. For men, their sex is much less salient. The main way sex matters for men is socially; ie, they are accorded all sorts of privileges based on their sex.