GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (205 children)

Genderbender asked GC people who use women's restrooms:

How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

Or someone who appears to be a trans woman?

Both these questions are based on the assumption that GC users of women's restrooms (who are presumably female) can tell just by looking that TW are TW sometimes, often or always. If TW always passed, how would anyone else be able to discern that a TW seen in the ladies' loo is a TW and not a W?

The second question is based on the further assumption that it's sometimes, often or always impossible for observers to tell the difference between a TW and a male who is dressed "like a woman" for reasons other than gender identity. Such as because he's a drag queen or performer who does British-style panto; he's dressed up for a costume party or stag night; he's simply exploring and expressing his "feminine" side; he's wearing a disguise because he's on the lam as in "Some Like It Hot;" he is an autogynephile but one who does not actually "identify as" the opposite sex, like Grayson Perry; he's an attention-seeking "character" who's a bit of an oddball like Corporal Klinger; he's an attention-seeking entertainer trying to get media coverage; or he's a sexual predator who's decided to dress "like a woman" due to nefarious motives much like the ones that caused the Big Bad Wolf to put on grandmother's clothing in the story of Little Red Riding Hood.

If Genderbender didn't think GC women could tell the difference between TW and W at least some of the time, why would she have asked these questions? Clearly, Genderbender posed these questions after imagining in her head a scenario in a women's restroom where GC women see a person we can clearly clock as a TW, or as someone who appears to be a TW.

If Genderbender truly believed what the holy writ of the gender ideology creed says - which is that no one can tell that males who "identify as" female are not actually female without "looking in their pants" and testing their DNA - she wouldn't be conjuring up these sorts of scenarios in her mind's eye in the first place, and she'd have no reason to ask GC women what we'd do in the situation she clearly has invested time and energy watching unfold in her head.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (204 children)

Both these questions are based on the assumption that GC users of women's restrooms (who are presumably female) can tell just by looking that TW are TW sometimes

It doesn't mean anything more than "sometimes", what?

If TW always passed,

That wasn't claimed so

he's an attention-seeking "character" who's a bit of an oddball like Corporal Klinger;

Just a total aside that I really hate that show because it was an insult my mom used against me.

Such as because he's a drag queen or performer who does British-style panto

Idk what to tell u if you can't tell the difference between drag or panto as a performance and trans people wearing normal clothes and makeup. I don't discount the possibility that someone who isn't trans somehow passes, uses the women's room and also has ulterior or suspicious motives, but that's a totally separate concern from passing trans people using the bathroom.

tell the difference between TW and W at least some of the time

Please stop putting words into the mouths of QT ppl asking questions. I think most trans people have no trouble saying that there are scenarios where trans women can be distinguished. Just that for passing trans people what would be required to make that distinction would violate our privacy and you don't have a right to do that. I obviously wouldn't pass if someone examines my genitalia, but no one has the right to do that without my consent

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (203 children)

Idk what to tell u if you can't tell the difference between drag or panto as a performance and trans people wearing normal clothes and makeup.

I didn't say I personally couldn't tell the difference. I just gave examples of situations where males might be dressing and trying to appear "as women" and there'd be no way for someone who casually encounters them briefly to tell what their motives and reasons are. A stranger could guess, but there'd be no way to know for sure without inquiring.

Also, the fact of the matter is, there's often a huge discrepancy between what many male "trans people" regard as "wearing normal clothes and makeup" and what the rest of the world thinks is "wearing normal clothes and makeup."

For example, lots of TW dress in OTT, hyper sexualized ways; they wear outfits and makeup that most women and girls would not wear, unless those women and girls are porn actors, strippers, street prostitutes, Only Fans workers, Kardashians or entertainers like the rap artists like Cardi B or singer and dancer Jennifer Lopez.

Similarly, many middle-aged and older TW dress in ways that actual female people the same age do not - that we'd never be caught dead in, in fact. I've seen lots of TW in their 50s, 60s and 70s out and about in very short mini skirts, thigh highs and revealing tops that the vast majority of women their age would never, ever wear because the stage in our lives when we could get away with such a look ended many years ago. Similarly, some older TW like Sophie Grace Chappell and that infamous Stephonknee person who "identifies as" a child of 6 wear the clothing, makeup and hairstyles of little girls - Mary Janes, ankle socks, pig tails, party dresses with puffy sleeves, and pouffed-out skirts with crinolines.

I think most trans people have no trouble saying that there are scenarios where trans women can be distinguished. Just that for passing trans people what would be required to make that distinction would violate our privacy and you don't have a right to do that.

Maybe some trans people say that, but a lot of of TP and other gender identity ideologues refuse to acknowledge that there are any scenarios where TW can be distinguished. In fact, many TP and their allies say it's transphobic to acknowledge that some TW are clockable as males - even when they are naked and waving their penises and balls in girls' and women's faces. That's what happened in the Wi Spa case. Women who objected to seeing a naked adult male with a semi-erect penis in the women-only area of the spa were told time and again that serial sex offender Darren Merragher is a woman and thus Merragher's semi-hard penis on display was/is a woman's penis, because Merragher "identifies as" a TW - and TWAW.

It's also happened in the case of the many TW whose mug shots and other photos have appeared in the press due to them being arrested or convicted of violent crimes like murder, attempted murder, assaults with axes, hammers and knives and sex crimes like rape, possession of images showing children being sexually abused, and indecent exposure. Trans people and allies constantly say that observing and declaring "that's not a woman" in the case of TPs convicted or accused of heinous crimes is just as bad an offense as the many murders, assaults, rapes and other sex crimes these TPs have committed. In fact, some TPs and their allies say that "misgendering" of TPs who've committed criminal acts against other people - including child sex abuse and the rape and murder of women - is a far worse offense than the horrible crimes they've committed.

Just that for passing trans people what would be required to make that distinction would violate our privacy and you don't have a right to do that.

But the scenario that Genderbender brought up was about a women's restroom. By going into such spaces, TW are violating the privacy - and jeopardizing the safety and denying the dignity - of female human beings. Where do you get the impression that you and other males like you have the right to do this?

That's a serious question. I think if you look into it, you'll find that the right that some males believe they have to use women's restrooms on account of their gender identity claims and gender presentation is a right that some males decided simply to declare and take for themselves, without ever bothering to ask women if it was okay with us. Now after the fact, males who arrogantly assumed that women's restrooms and other female spaces are theirs for the taking are finding out that lots of women are not okay with this kind of male interloping - and this discovery is causing you/them to feel outraged. It never occurred to you/them that women would push back and say "this is not your space, you do not belong here" because virtually none of you gave a moment's thought to the issue of how your actions would affect female people. In the calculations of most TW, the feelings and perspectives of actual women are never factored in, because most TW see us as objects, inferiors, and lowly service providers whose purpose in life is to center and cater to males - not as full-fledged human beings with needs and perspectives of our own who deserve rights as much as anyone else.

But even if TW had bothered to ask permission to horn in on female spaces, the fundamental problem is that especially as more and more people declare they are trans - and being trans has no concrete or fixed definition - it becomes harder and harder for the world to agree on exactly who counts as

passing trans people

Especially "passing trans women." However, the fact that you yourself use the phrase "passing trans people" shows that even you admit there are some who don't pass even in your own eyes. So the thorny issue at the heart of the matter remains: when people don't see eye to eye, whose perceptions count? Why should the idealized images that TW see when they gaze at themselves in their mirrors take precedence over what other people see when they encounter them out and about?

More to the point, why should the claims of male persons who say that they are now women be taken more seriously and given more weight and credence than the claims of actual women who say no they/you are not?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, the fact of the matter is, there's often a huge discrepancy between what many male "trans people" regard as "wearing normal clothes and makeup" and what the rest of the world thinks is "wearing normal clothes and makeup."

Genuinely don't see how this is relevant or how going off about what some people wear is somehow representative? Idk I should clarify that I'm only trying with my comments to represent a cohort of young adult trans people that I'm a part of and most familiar with. And you might not like people wearing "stripper" makeup but 1. Sex workers, prostitutes, etc, don't deserve any hate and 2. A lot of us have had to learn the norms and expectations of cosmetics as adults because it was forbidden to us as kids. I'd personally like to wear more makeup but I have very little confidence in my ability lol.

Anyway I wear jeans and tees and converse but idk what's supposed to be so wrong if I wore thigh highs and shorts instead. I don't because of the association.

lots of TW dress in OTT, hyper sexualized ways

Okay uhh so do plenty of women and I don't see you questioning their womanhood or speculating on their creepiness?

In fact, some TPs and their allies say that "misgendering" of TP convicted and accused criminals is a far worse offense

Tbh I can agree they're being really hyperbolic there. I'm on the fence on whether I care about misgendering r*pists and other criminals and it's certainly smaller magnitude than their crime. But if we're going to treat criminals as human beings to an extent that should probably include pronouns? Idk. They're still vile people.

By going into such spaces, TW are violating the privacy

In what way does us using the bathroom violate your or anyone else's privacy? Trans women have been using the women's room for decades, if someone is being a creep then it should be normalized to report that regardless of their gender.

I still have a ton of anxiety over this and once I spent almost an hour in a stall at the zoo because I didn't want anyone to see me leaving in case they clocked me. I'm tired of being irrational and stressing myself out over something that isn't even a problem.

So the thorny issue remains: when people don't see eye to eye, whose perceptions count?

No one's perception counts, otherwise you get butch women thrown out of bathrooms for looking "male" to some nobody. Even if someone doesn't pass they should be able to use the bathroom imo. They're allowed to personally evaluate whether they're comfortable doing that, like, ik I wouldn't be, but yeah

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (201 children)

Realized u edited after I replied, sorry!

It never occurred to you/them that women would push back and say "this is not your space" because none of you thought about how your actions w

No I actually think about it all the time to the point where it makes it difficult for me to do anything. Tell me, who am I supposed to ask for permission to be a woman? You? Sorry but I've spent years asking and the only answer I ever get is that I can't, I get told to just be a gnc man, etc--basically impossible answers that I can't hope to adhere to without hurting myself. The expectation for me from y'all is that I should be totally selfless and be a woman in my home but conform in public and I just won't do that, it's not a fair expectation to place. I care about whether other people are comfortable around me but I'm not going to flagellate myself to appease them. I know I'm a woman, if you think differently I'm sorry and I'll do my best to wash my hands as fast as possible so you don't have to look at my ugly mug too long

Why should the idealized images that TW see when they gaze at themselves in their mirrors

Lol when I look in the mirror I see a nasty goblin man, far from an idealized image of myself. I've had to reinforce to myself that I am never an accurate judge of my appearance and to rely on others, because no one around me ever sees me that way and it's just my dysphoric brain being how it is.

[–]Juniperius 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (70 children)

Tell me, who am I supposed to ask for permission to be a woman? You? Sorry but I've spent years asking and the only answer I ever get is that I can't, I get told to just be a gnc man, etc--basically impossible answers that I can't hope to adhere to without hurting myself.

Do you apply this logic to everything?

I've asked repeatedly for some of your French fries and you keep saying no, so I'm just going to take them anyway?

I've spent years asking the citizens of my town to put me on the city court, and they keep telling me no, so I'm just going to commit a coup?

I've spent years asking someone to have sex with me, and she keeps telling me that she doesn't want to, so I'm going to slip her a roofie?

Sometimes the answer is no. That doesn't mean you didn't ask enough times.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (69 children)

No, just in cases where it affects an identity I've had my entire life. Also idk it's gross to compare it to slipping someone something in their drink when there isn't any concrete person's autonomy being violated here. Who's hurt by me being a woman?

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (68 children)

Who is hurt by you pretending to be a woman? Everyone who is forced to play along or face backlash, everyone who has to ignore their instincts for social cohesion, everyone who has to give up their privacy to accommodate you, everyone who has to ignore reality for your benefit.

Your identity does not exist separate from society, and by claiming to be a woman, you negatively impact women and their female-specific rights and issues. Frankly, it's insulting to many of us who are actually female and socialized as girls in a sexist society our entire lives.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (67 children)

How am I making people do that when I don't tell anyone irl I'm trans? And what privacy would even be given up?

Why is it insulting just because I wasn't raised that way? How many years of living do I need to go through as an adult before it will matter more than the childhood I never chose? When I'm 37 can I say I'm a woman then?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (59 children)

Woman is not a title that is earned, bestowed, or given to anyone. As unfair as you may find it, there is no equation or formula or set of rites that can make anyone a woman.

A person is or isn’t and that’s all there is to it. I’d like to be tall and to be able to survive at 32kgs and have previously deluded myself into believing the latter is possible. It isn’t though, and nothing will make it so, even if it torments me.

Sometimes shit just happens the way we don’t want it to and it cannot be changed. Acceptance of the impossible is healthy.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (58 children)

I simply don't believe that, nothing is impossible. I won't accept something that viscerally wrong.

[–]comradeconradical 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you're not female nothing you do will make me say you're a woman. Transwoman at best.

Also, "passing" is in the eyes of the beholder.

Female women have the right to sex-segregated spaces, and when males infringe on this they are forcing women to give up their privacy.

[–]Juniperius 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

When I'm 37 can I say I'm a woman then?

No.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It just seems incredibly backwards to insist that someone is forever whatever they were in childhood and people cannot ever change. I'm going to continue to believe in change, I guess.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (43 children)

Sorry but I've spent years asking and the only answer I ever get is that I can't, I get told to just be a gnc man, etc--basically impossible answers that I can't hope to adhere to without hurting myself. The expectation for me from y'all is that I should be totally selfless and be a woman in my home but conform in public and I just won't do that, it's not a fair expectation to place. I care about whether other people are comfortable around me but I'm not going to flagellate myself to appease them.

So, instead, you expect women be the ones who must disregard our own comfort and safety so to appease people like you. So you all keep accessing women's bathrooms, which you all have decided without asking women of course, you HAVE to use at all costs. It's women who must sacrifice themselves for the benefict of you all.

If you all don't want to use the men's bathrooms (and other sex-seggregated spaces), then you all can advocate for third spaces. But, no, you all do NOT want to use third spaces under any circunstance because that it's not "validating" enough or whatever. No, you all must use the women's bathrooms regardless of how women feel about this. And, of course, women are the ones who are being mean by standing up for their own boundaries and no you all for feeling entintled to use spaces that never were meant for you all.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (42 children)

you all have decided without asking women of course, you HAVE to use at all costs.

I'm just not going to put myself last at all costs anymore. Trans people don't have to sacrifice ourselves for you either.

Also still I don't understand what you mean by asking women, who exactly? Bc I've had women drag me into bathrooms before and tell me I was being silly.

But, no, you all do NOT want to use third spaces under any circunstance

Because I will not be told what I supposedly am and where I'm "supposed" to pee, yeah. And because a third space would be more likely to make someone question I'm trans and I have a right to live a private life. I'm going to stand up for myself and other trans people no matter how much I'm told to just give in. Would you use one regularly or would you feel you should be able to use the bathroom that's for you? Idk I will use it if nothing else is available but not if I've been forced to

A bathroom that you don't own and that trans people have been using for decades is not your boundary, you can't just declare things as being your boundary and expect everyone to accept your ownership?? Like, your person, your body, those are for you to set what you're comfortable with 100% but kicking an entire group out of a bathroom simply because you don't like some of us is just bigotry. Neither of us should get to decide how each other lives, if someone is harassing you or making you feel unsafe then ofc I support you, heck I'd probably support you if there were an incident and it were your word against theirs because women should be believed.

Like, wouldn't you say that women's bathrooms are for all women and girls regardless of race, creed, sexuality, etc? Bc if so that's exactly how I feel, you just do not include me in that. That doesn't mean I'm just going to assume you must be absolutely correct.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

I'm just not going to put myself last at all costs anymore. Trans people don't have to sacrifice ourselves for you either.

No one is asking you to sacrifice yourself. Again, you all are free to advocate for third spaces. I doubt youwould find much oppossition to this solution besides yourselves.

Also still I don't understand what you mean by asking women, who exactly? Bc I've had women drag me into bathrooms before and tell me I was being silly.

The fact that your friends are okay with you using the women's bathrooms doesn't mean ALL women are fine with this. It's quite arrogant on your friends' part to consent to this in name of all women.

Would you use one regularly or would you feel you should be able to use the bathroom that's for you?

Sorry, but when was the votation where it was decided that women's bathrooms will be open from anyone who identifyes as a "women" regardless of biology? I think I missed it, same with the votation where it was decided anyone could be a "woman".

A bathroom that you don't own and that trans people have been using for decades is not your boundary, you can't just declare things as being your boundary and expect everyone to accept your ownership??

The fact you all have been using women's bathrooms for decades doesn't mean you are now entitled to them. The fact is they weren't meant for you all back then, either. If you all find more opposition for your actions right now is because your actions are not a secret anymore as there are way more males who claim to be "women" and because of the internet.

Like, your person, your body, those are for you to set what you're comfortable with 100% but kicking an entire group out of a bathroom simply because you don't like some of us is just bigotry.

Why do you think public bathrooms and other places where vulnerability is expected are sex-seggregated to begin with? It's not a social club. It's about and privacity because lots of women are not confortable sharing them with male strangers. It's about safety because men are physically stronger and are more likely to be violent and most sex predators are men. Women cannot know which males are safe or not, so the best prevention strategy is baryng ALL males from such places. You're taking our "no" too personally, but this is NOT about you. Allowing special exeptions for certains males because they feel like "women" defeats the purpose of sex-seggregation.

if someone is harassing you or making you feel unsafe then ofc I support you, heck I'd probably support you if there were an incident and it were your word against theirs because women should be believed.

Oh, right, women should be believed unless it's about "transwomen" accessing women's spaces. It's funny how you all expect sympathy for any potential male abuse you may suffer in men's bathrooms, and yet you all dismiss women's concerns so easily. You all insist you NEED to be away from the men for your own safety, but women must settle for your "support" after an avoidable incident happened.

Like, wouldn't you say that women's bathrooms are for all women and girls regardless of race, creed, sexuality, etc? Bc if so that's exactly how I feel, you just do not include me in that.

It's not about whether I want to include you or not. It's about the fact we are opposite sexes regardless of how you view yourself.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

Again, you all are free to advocate for third spaces

We aren't a third thing, we're men and women. I support third spaces for enbies but it should be up to them.

It's quite arrogant on your friends' part to consent to this in name of all women.

It's quite arrogant on yours to assume you speak for all women either?

Sorry, but when was the votation where it was decided that women's bathrooms will be open from anyone who identifyes as a "women" regardless of biology? I think I missed it, same with the votation where it was decided anyone could be a "woman".

You can't actually believe that there could ever be such a vote, right? People assume I am a woman regardless of how you vote, I don't need permission for that any more than you do.

The fact you all have been using women's bathrooms for decades doesn't mean you are now entitled to them

Neither does it entitle you to say we can't use them though.

baryng ALL males from such places.

  1. I'm not a "male" or at least I won't be cast as such against my will
  2. This will do absolutely nothing to stop predatory men. They should be arrested for what they actually do wrong, not just being in a bathroom, banning trans women will not deter them to any significant effect, plus, banning trans women will hurt more trans women than there would be those potentially helped if that actually deterred a small minority of predators.

Oh, right, women should be believed unless it's about "transwomen" accessing women's spaces

Trans women being in those spaces is not inherently harmful.

It's funny how you all expect sympathy for any potential male abuse you may suffer in men's bathrooms, and yet you all dismiss women's concerns so easily.

It's funny how you all expect trans women to defer to your concerns no matter what and flagellate ourselves because you think we don't deserve to stand up for ourselves, aka exactly how misogynistic men treat women. I have empathy for anyone who suffers abuse in a bathroom but I do not see why means the vast majority should be excluded. All women including trans women deserve public space away from men.

It's about the fact we are opposite sexes regardless of how you view yourself.

So? We don't have to be the same sex to both be women.

[–]Juniperius 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

It's quite arrogant on your friends' part to consent to this in name of all women.

It's quite arrogant on yours to assume you speak for all women either?

That's not how it works. Consent/lack of consent is not symmetrical.

Say I consent to something. You get offended when I make comparisons to sexual activity, so I won't this time. Say I consent to being around you with no mask, but my younger sister does not. My consent does not make it all right for you to potentially expose her to COVID if she does not feel comfortable with you for whatever reason. I can't consent for her. But her lack of consent does mean that you can't come hang out maskless with the two of us. She is not "speaking for me," and it is not arrogant of her to withhold consent even if I would make a different choice in her absence.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

You're trying to apply the idea of personal consent to some sort of collective though. Like I wouldn't use your bathroom but I'll use a public one because you don't have any connection or knowledge of the other strangers using it. There's no consensus, not to mention that if you were to exclude any other kind of woman you'd rightfully be called discriminatory.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It's about the fact we are opposite sexes regardless of how you view yourself.

So? We don't have to be the same sex to both be women.

Of course we would have to be the same sex to both be women! Saying you're a woman doesn't make you one just like saying you're a bird doesn't make you a bird, either. I'm not making any moral judgement by stating such facts. It's not my fault if you decide to interpret this as an attack against you because of your own views on women and men, and because of your self-esteem issues.

On the other hand, I find insulting your insistence that we are both woman and that sex is irrelevant. Once you decide that the definition of woman is not rooted in biology, all that is left are sex-based roles and stereotypes and I refuse to be defined on such terms. And I remind you that you have yet to explain in what way you are a "woman" beyond your own wishes, and why it's so important for you to reject your own sex.

As for what is harm in women giving up women's spaces like public bathrooms in order to accomodate people like you, well, here you have some examples:

Single-sex toilets needed to overcome girls' barriers to education,' says Unesco

Unisex changing rooms put women at danger of sexual assault, data reveals

Women are losing access to public toilets 'by stealth' amid a boom in gender-neutral loos, say experts

School girls rejecting mixed toilets over boys’ bad behaviour

Professor Blasts 'Unacceptable' Gender-Neutral Bathroom With Man at Urinal

Father Claims Daughter Was Sexually Assaulted by Male Student in Girls' Washroom at School

Male Student Filmed Women in “All Gender” Washroom

Lia Thomas' UPenn teammate tells how the trans swimmer doesn't always cover up her male genitals when changing and their concerns go ignored by their coach

LAPD Officer Blamed a Mother for Exposing her Daughter to Male Genitals at Wi Spa

Five Women Have Filed Police Reports Alleging Indecent Exposure at Wi Spa

Patient safety fears as NHS allows trans sex offenders in female-only wards

NHS 'gaslighting' patients over trans women on female-only wards, nurse claims

Hospital told police a woman who complained she was raped that only other women were present on the single-sex ward - before admitting after a YEAR that one was trans

Protecting men at the women’s shelter

‘Bigoted people may be challenged’: Comments by trans head of Edinburgh Rape Crisis sparks controversy

Why was convicted paedophile allowed to move to a female jail?

Male-Bodied Rapists Are Being Imprisoned With Women. Why Do so Few People Care?

Prison officers demand guidelines on transgender inmates

Female prisoners at greater risk of sexual assault by transgender inmates, High Court hears

High Court rules transgender women CAN go into female prisons: Judges rule government's policy is lawful despite claims from inmate it raised risk of sex attacks

Women prisoners who call transgender inmates ‘he’ or ‘him’ face extra jail time

Trans-Identified Male Inmates Committing Sexual Assault in Women's Jails, Female Ex-Inmate Claims

Female Prison Staff Called "Transphobic" for Discomfort with Trans-Identified Male Inmates

Two inmates at all-women's New Jersey jail are PREGNANT after both had sex with transgender prisoners: ACLU won battle to house 27 trans inmates there

UK: Women Recount Staff Denying there were Men in Single-Sex Hospital Spaces

Transgender Inmate Convicted Of Raping Female Prisoner at Women’s Facility

Women Being ‘Punished’ For Complaining About Male Transfers: Inmate in California Women’s Prison

I can look up more examples if you want, including ones that are only about public bathrooms.

Edit: typos

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Saying you're a woman doesn't make you one just like saying you're a bird doesn't make you a bird, either.

If I said I was a bird and got people to perceive me as a bird yeah I'd be a bird. I'm just not really feeling strongly on that lol

that we are both woman and that sex is irrelevant

Ofc sex is relevant but for me socially the sex I'm perceived to be is usually more relevant. I'm a woman because everyone from strangers to coworkers thinks I am and that matches with what I feel I am.

I've never needed a reason "why" to reject my sex. I wouldn't even really care if I found out why, honestly, what would it change? If a doctor or God came down and told me that I only feel this way because of a b & c, well, abc is a part of me and I wouldn't just feel different.

It could be the case that dysphoria can be caused by trauma, or misplaced gnc expression, or anything -- I'm still trans.

Also uhm, you can't reasonably expect me to respond to every single article in that right x( it will take me a while but fwiw

There have also been studies done showing that trans people using the bathroom did not cause any issues: https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

I don't think gender neutral toilets are a good idea so I'm not going against the articles you shared about them. A third, single stall room would be nice, but trans people have been using the room that matches our expression for a long time and will continue to just fine.

As for prisoners/criminals/people who have done awful things: 1. Obviously I do not support their crimes and I hope those they hurt receive help and love 2. If you want to talk about prison placement we can but idk how it's the same thing as bathrooms? Unless you think most people using bathrooms are criminals 3. Idk how I'm personally responsible for the actions of lia Thomas or r*pists or why their behavior or crimes should mean I'm treated the same

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (85 children)

Tell me, who am I supposed to ask for permission to be a woman? You?

I know I'm a woman

Sorry, but even you don't sound convinced by your own rhetoric.

Being a woman isn't like gaining entry to a club. It's a matter of biology. Nature/evolution decided your sex when your mother's egg and your father's sperm merged. It had nothing whatsoever to do with me. Neither I nor any other woman or person on earth can grant you permission to be a woman just like none of us can wave a magic wand, say abracadabra and grant you three wishes.

Your sex and your unhappiness with your sex are not my problem. Nor are they the problem of the rest of the world's women and girls to deal with and solve for you. I am truly sorry for your suffering - I genuinely am - but the fact is, lots of people suffer with all sorts of psychological and physical problems that are just as bad or actually far worse than gender dysphoria.

If you genuinely want to find happiness, you've got to find a way to deal with your problems that doesn't require all of society be totally re-arranged just to suit you. You've got to find a way that doesn't demand that everyone else in the world help you feel feel better by constantly denying reality, denying our own perceptions, watching what we say and changing how we say it, biting our tongues, telling lies and forever walking on eggshells.

If you truly want to find happiness, you've got to find a way that doesn't require that the female half of the human forfeit our own safety, privacy, dignity, comfort and mental health for you.

Women and girls are not here on earth for your convenience and use. Women and girls need female-only spaces for ourselves for our own reasons.

The solution to your dilemmas as regards peeing goes is to campaign for additional spaces for people who don't want to use the single-sex spaces consistent with their/your own sex. The solution for your larger issues about social acceptance and other people being comfortable around you is to campaign for other members of your sex to be kinder and more tolerant toward nonconforming males.

I will support you in both campaigns. But women and girls have enough problems of our own to deal with. Moreover, the social changes and accommodations you and other gender identity ideologues are demanding create more problems for girls and women and make the material reality of our own lives much worse. It's unreasonable for males like yourself to ask and expect women and girls to give up the hard-won spaces, safeguards, services, sports and rights that generations of women fought tooth and nail for over hundreds years just because now in the 21st century some very entitled people with luxury beliefs have developed self-image and identity issues.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (84 children)

I am truly sorry for your suffering - I genuinely am

Doubt. I am not asking you to solve my problem! I am solving it myself, through various ways of transition. You say it's biology; so then I'll change my biology and in the meantime I will just live pretending as if I have. It's not perfect but it's enough to get by.

If you truly want to find happiness

I'll find happiness when I'm female or at least not male anymore, not trapped in this body, and not a second before

The solution to your dilemmas as regards peeing goes is to campaign for additional spaces for people who don't want to use the single-sex spaces consistent with their/your own sex

I don't want additional spaces because I'm not an "additional sex". I'm a woman and identify with women and yeah I'm going to try and be cognizant of my appearance and all but I shouldn't need to walk on eggshells in order so that someone will not be upset by my mere existence anymore than other women should.

But women and girls have enough problems of our own to deal with

A lot of those problems are also the problems of trans women and girls. Not biological ones, but the misogyny that's directed at everyone because of that biology or the assumption of it. We should be helping each other solve that and for the most part trans people are pro bodily autonomy unlike the religious right who so many GCs seem to be fine allying with.

very entitled people with luxury beliefs

It's far from a luxury, but idk if I should be surprised y'all like Rowling here. I'm not trans because I thought it'd be a fun thing to do, I am because it was the only thing I could do.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (83 children)

A lot of those problems are also the problems of trans women and girls. Not biological ones, but the misogyny that's directed at everyone because of that biology or the assumption of it. We should be helping each other solve that and for the most part trans people are pro bodily autonomy unlike the religious right who so many GCs seem to be fine allying with.

This is forced teaming. It's a tactic abusers use.

You and I share common interests as human beings, and I am sure we are aligned on various political and social issues. But because we are different sexes, there are many experiences we do not share - and many places where our interests diverge.

You belong to the sex that for millennia has oppressed and abused my sex. I interpret the kind of attitudes you display as just more of the same sort of arrogant, selfish, male supremacist male entitlement that men and boys have been displaying for tens of thousands of years to lord it over women and girls, intimidate us, dehumanize us, bully us, keep us down and let us know that in their/your eyes we don't matter nearly as much as males do. I experience the intrusive, sex-appropriating and colonizing behaviors you are engaging as more of the same sorts of abusiveness that your sex has been dishing out to my sex for millennia.

You can tell yourself that you are a victim of misogyny until you are blue in the face. It won't make it so. Nor will it change the fact that I and many others think the attitudes that most males who call themselves TW have towards women and girls, the way you see and treat us, and the demands you are making of us, epitomize misogyny.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (82 children)

This is forced teaming

It's not forced it's just how things are?? It's allyship, there are plenty of things I don't experience too but I still support you in solving those issues even if it doesn't affect me.

You belong to the sex that for millennia has oppressed and abused my sex

Why does that mean I'm a horrible person though? I'm so sorry if in any of our conversations I've made you feel scared or intimidated. Really I am, I am truly trying to live my life as a woman without hurting anyone. But tbh... you don't really know much about me or my relationships with others. How I see myself has nothing to do with how I see you or other women or girls. I don't like it when people act misogynistically towards me, if that's what you think. It's just that just like everyone else I shouldn't be required or expected to escape from being targeted by not appearing as a woman.

Of course you matter as much, because you're a human being.

Not sure how I can be a male supremacist when I hate being male and everything that comes with it and so I am trying to change and be better. I've just realized that shouldn't include being a total doormat because that's kinda how I am irl.

Idk, I have enough self-respect to say I don't really think there's a point in talking to someone who thinks I am an abuser for being stealth trans. What am I supposed to say to that anyway? "Ok I won't be trans anymore"? I can and will be a good person who happens to be trans, even if you don't agree. I wish you well though

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

Not sure how I can be a male supremacist when I hate being male and everything that comes with it and so I am trying to change and be better.

Virtually all males are male supremacists because virtually all males take advantage of the benefits of male supremacy. You are actively benefiting from male supremacy and misogyny when you use women’s spaces. Look at the responses in this thread, where every single woman said they would leave or otherwise not speak up despite their discomfort. Why do you think they’re uncomfortable, and why do you think they wouldn’t speak up? You directly benefit from every rape, murder, assault, and harassment of female people by male people endemic in patriarchy. You directly benefit from every assault, threat, deplatform, and loss of livelihood and reputation that male trans people have inflicted on female people. Even if you’ve never personally done any of these things—you can use women’s spaces, resources, words, etc, because of these things. You have unsuccessfully tried to divorce yourself from the wider context of patriarchy and male supremacy but this has just made your analysis shallow, and your attempts to ‘change and be better’ ineffective.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

Well of course GCers are uncomfortable around trans people because y'all hate us. That's not surprising. Y'all speak up on here but there's literally no reason anyone should be afraid of me, if someone angrily confronted me I would just leave. I don't benefit from male violence; men direct it at me too. I don't harass anyone I am just done being too terrified to go out in public. I can only use those spaces because I transitioned and take hormones and voice trained, not because of others' actions.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

“It’s not forced it’s just how things are???”

It’s “just how things are” even though a large portion of women and girls don’t want that to be just how things are. Yet we are forced to deal with it. Do you get what I’m saying? By nature of it being “just how things are” it’s forced.

“I’m so sorry if any of our conversations I’ve made you feel intimidated or scared”

But not sorry if in real life your actions have made us feel intimidated or scared? Do you understand how scary that, in and of itself, is? That you would apologize if you said something but not when you actively do something?

Do you understand that effectively, you’re telling us that you don’t care that your presence in our spaces and corruption of the language we need to describe the reality of our lives is terrifying to many of us, but you’ll apologize if the way you word things is scary?

“Really I am, I am truly trying to live my life as a woman without hurting anyone…”

So then why do you not listen to the women who tell you that you are actually hurting us just by truly trying to do that? Instead you just tell us that some women don’t feel that way. You said you didn’t want to hurt anyone… the women who feel harmed by TW are a part of anyone. Why is it okay to disregard them?

Im not trying to attack you, and I know I’m not a part of this conversation, I just don’t understand this and so I had to ask.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

It’s “just how things are” even though a large portion of women and girls don’t want that to be just how things are

I didn't ever imply I think this is the way things should be?? But like misogyny exists yes and I don't want that to be how things are either.

Yet we are forced to deal with it

And you think that passing trans women aren't also forced to deal with it? (Some of it) We are, if you say we could just detransition to avoid it then why don't you transition? Because it's simply not who you are right? And that's okay, no one should be forced to perform to get by in the world.

That you would apologize if you said something but not when you actively do something?

What am I actively doing that's so terrible, y'all know v little about me?

Do you understand that effectively, you’re telling us that you don’t care that your presence in our spaces and corruption of the language we need

I care and try to make my presence as invisible as possible, I'm just not going to self-harm to make absolutely everyone happy. Like I try to minimize my public bathroom usage and use it when no one else is around but like I'm not going to use the men's room (where I'm way more likely to both be uncomfortable and make others uncomfortable) just because someone might be uncomfortable with the 30 seconds I'm in the bathroom and not in a stall. There's a bunch of ifs there, they'd need to both see me and clock me and be uncomfortable.

Also I literally never understand the language bit, language is always changing and evolving, trans women being counted as women doesn't mean that other women stop being such, or that when people hear "women" they think of you by default. Like I think that the gender neutral language used could be improved but I don't think the trans men I know should have to be referred to as women either. And I don't have any issue with how you define yourself and whether like, your sexuality excludes trans people or is sex-based. I think everyone should use the labels they feel best fit them.

So then why do you not listen to the women who tell you that you are actually hurting us just by truly trying to do that?

Because I've just been hurting myself in the process. Those women were harmed by trans women who are not me, it's awful but idk how I had a part in that. I hate predatory or abusivd people no matter what their gender is. And because literally every other person I talk to who's not involved in this "debate" (if you can even call it that), says that I'm being ridiculous by bending over backwards to appease GC people who will never accept me no matter what. Obvi I'll respect your personal boundaries and others' and if I knew you I would ofc wait to use the bathroom. I just won't assume that everyone dislikes or fears trans people as much as you seem to or that I'm hurting people by being trans.

Surely there are things about you that you wouldn't just stop if someone told you they didn't like it? You'd have to assess reasonably whether they're correct, I would hope you don't live your life tripping over yourself every time a random internet person were to baselessly call something you do abusive, you know? I used to and it's just bad for mentally to always be self-correcting

Being trans doesn't even feel like an action to me it's just like, a state of being, almost. I'm kinda past the point of thinking anything I could reasonably do would please GC 100%.

and dw it's okay! It's one big conversation I guess haha