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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Chickens don't obviously have a concept of gender (I might stand corrected idk), and they have much greater sexual dimorphism than humans, so a rooster is a male chicken.

(If it turns out chickens do have a concept of gender or transness, then I would say that a rooster is any chicken seen by other chickens to be male regardless of actual, factual, maleness)

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

So, you know what a rooster is. Good. Now, why there cannot be a word that means adult human female? Why do women must be defined based in sexist stereotypes?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

They aren't, unless you consider being perceived to be female as a sexist stereotype regardless of clothes or style. Also there's plenty of words or phrases: cis woman, womyn-born-womyn, even adult human female will probably get your meaning across: someone who is a woman and did not undergo any sort of gender transition to become such

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

They aren't, unless you consider being perceived to be female as a sexist stereotype regardless of clothes or style.

What does being perceived to be female even means?

Just listening to trans identified people talking about their "authentic selves" makes clear that they often hold very sexist ideas about what a woman or man are. Like there is even a British lobby group who uses (or at least used) an escale between Barbie and G.I Joe to explain "gender identity" to children. There is a trans identified male, Andrea Long Chu (or something like that), who wrote about his experience and states that being female is "an expectan asshole, dead eyes" (you really cannot get more misogynist than that). Oh, and there is also the trans flag (pink and blue? I mean, seriously?). And there are plenty of other examples like that.

Also there's plenty of words or phrases: cis woman, womyn-born-womyn, even adult human female will probably get your meaning across: someone who is a woman and did not undergo any sort of gender transition to become such

Oh, I like how you expect everyone calls you as you see yourself, but women have to acept the words that you deem appropriate for us.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

What does being perceived to be female even means?

It just means that when other people think of you, do they think you're a man or a woman? Dependent on sex characteristics, presentation, information you've told them, etc.

Just listening to trans identified people talking about their "authentic selves" makes clear that they often hold very sexist ideas about what a woman or man are

Honestly not more than cis people hold sexist ideas of what men or women must be. And yeah that's problematic but I don't see you disputing that sexist men and women are still men or women?

It's like, I do not think that women should have to perform femininity, I know and love women who are unapologetically themselves, who do not conform with every expectation and that's great. Feminity doesn't equal womanhood.

But for me, because I want to be far apart from anything masculine, I feel like I must conform to some feminine expectations just to be seen "the right way". That's part of why I've trained my voice and don't go topless, because it would be socially unacceptable for me to sound like a man or to have my breasts shown. It shouldn't be unacceptable, but it is right now.

I don't agree with what Andrea said though.

Oh, I like how you expect everyone calls you as you see yourself, but women have to acept the words that you deem appropriate for us.

You can use whichever words you want for yourselves! Just don't be surprised if people are confused or need clarification? Like, I'm not stopping you from using the word women? Just, I'm going to use it too because it describes me best..

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

It just means that when other people think of you, do they think you're a man or a woman? Dependent on sex characteristics, presentation, information you've told them, etc.

Like I told you, I've been mistaken for a man on the internet; and, because of my somewhat deep voice, a few times I've been mistaken for a boy on the phone and interphone. Does that makes me less of a woman?

Honestly not more than cis people hold sexist ideas of what men or women must be. And yeah that's problematic but I don't see you disputing that sexist men and women are still men or women?

It's like, I do not think that women should have to perform femininity, I know and love women who are unapologetically themselves, who do not conform with every expectation and that's great. Feminity doesn't equal womanhood.

Sexist men are still men and sexist women are still women, of course. It's their ideas about how women and men should be what I take offense at. And in the case of trans identified people those ideas are likely influencing how they perceive themselves. For example, imagine the case of a 12 year-old girl who is perceived as "masculine" for their interest and behaviour: let's say for instance, she has short hair, prefer practical clothes, doesn't wear male-up, likes outdoor acvities and loves action movies among other things. She has been struggling with the body changes brought by puberty like breast growth and periods alongside with the unwanted male attention. She feels like she doesn't fit in and, to complicate matters, she is becoming aware that she is only attracted to girls, not boys. And because she holds some sexist ideas about women and men, some day she concludes her life would be far more easier if she were a typical heterosexual boy. She thinks if she were a boy she would suddenly fit in with her peers and she wouldn't have to deal with periods, unwanted male attention or homophobia. And nowadays, in order to try to "live as man", she could be prescribed GnRH agonists to "pause" puberty and, later, testosterone, and being refered for a bilateral mastectomy. All this with the blessing of the MSM, the medical and political establishments, her teachers and, maybe, even her family; none of whom would question her motivations for "transition" nor would try to help her get more comfortable in her own skin.

But for me, because I want to be far apart from anything masculine, I feel like I must conform to some feminine expectations just to be seen "the right way". That's part of why I've trained my voice and don't go topless, because it would be socially unacceptable for me to sound like a man or to have my breasts shown. It shouldn't be unacceptable, but it is right now.

But why do feel like you need to do this? Why cannot you do whatever you want without rejecting your own body and changing how everyone sees you?

You can use whichever words you want for yourselves! Just don't be surprised if people are confused or need clarification? Like, I'm not stopping you from using the word women? Just, I'm going to use it too because it describes me best..

Didn't you say yesterday that nobody owns words...? Jokes aside, words are important for communication and that is why one cannot change arbitraly the meanings of words and expect to be undertood by everyone else. However, I am NOT the one who is proposing a radical change in language; it's QT who are doing this. Until very recently in human history, saying that women are adult human females would have been an uncontroversial statement. In fact, I can even point out when the shift in language happened in my country, Argentina: it was around 11-12 years ago when newsmedia outlets started refering to trans identified males as "women" with the help of trans activists who "educated" them, and it was in 2012 when self-ID and "medical transition" were legalized here.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Does that makes me less of a woman?

No? You said it only happens occasionally. Idk online I'm out as trans but irl ppl "mistake" me for female basically 100% of the time. And lol even that doesn't make me much happier to look in the mirror or hear myself on recording; I kinda pass to most people but myself x(

And because she holds some sexist ideas about women and men, some day she concludes her life would be far more easier if she were a typical heterosexual boy. She thinks if she were a boy she would suddenly fit in with her peers and she wouldn't have to deal with periods, unwanted male attention or homophobia

If people who would otherwise have been GNC in a world without transition, decide to transition instead of being GNC, then isn't that kind of their decision to make? More GNC people and fewer trans people isn't necessarily a positive (or negative) thing, unless you consider transness to be a negative state. I think that, if this hypothetical kid could end up living a happy life transitioning or not, then whether they do is totally up to them and we shouldn't try to protect them from their own choices.

Idk, I was gnc growing up. I danced, I didn't like playing with military toys, I was invited and went to girls' sleepovers, I guess because I must have given off an intense gay aura or something. (I'm not saying this is proof of anything but just that I grew up feeling different) But the idea of growing up to be, well, a man, is so distasteful and wrong to me. It doesn't feel like it's what I'm supposed to do. Transition has given me the chance to, if not totally change my sex, then at least approximate it and have people think that.

Why cannot you do whatever you want without rejecting your own body and changing how everyone sees you?

I guess I'm just not interested in how androgyny works for amab people who aren't on hormones? The idea of being masculine makes me feel gross, and if I did nothing, my body would just keep betraying me and making me more so. I (usually) tolerate living in it now but I don't like it. I have to inject weekly to keep it going in that state.

And on some level, that's kind of empowering? To feel that I have some control over things, over something I didn't have control over for a long time. I've even thought of getting like a cool tattoo or something near where I have to inject. Idk if that's cringy, but yeah.

Didn't you say yesterday that nobody owns words...?

Yeah!

that is why one cannot change arbitraly the meanings of words and expect to be undertood by everyone else.

You literally can tho, u cn tlk lk ths nd ppl cn stl ndrstnd u, language is whatever you make of it! The meanings of words are always contextual and change over time. Isn't that what GC is trying to do by insisting that woman still must mean adult human female, change how the word is understood from how transpositive people see it?

I don't really have a problem with people trying to change language, just with certain words being forced on me? Like I try not to say cis for people who have requested I not, and I don't have any cognitive dissonance in saying "women and trans women", if that is less problematic to you?

I don't personally like "trans-identified-sex" bc I think it erases any meaning transition might have had? And makes it all about just identity and not lived experience. But whatever.

"medical transition" were legalized here.

Wait isn't this last bit at least a good thing? For trans Argentinians

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No? You said it only happens occasionally.

All the people in my life could conspire to play me a big joke and refere to me as a man from now and even so I'll still know that I am a woman. The physical reality of my body will stay the same regardless of how everyone else call me.

If people who would otherwise have been GNC in a world without transition, decide to transition instead of being GNC, then isn't that kind of their decision to make? More GNC people and fewer trans people isn't necessarily a positive (or negative) thing, unless you consider transness to be a negative state. I think that, if this hypothetical kid could end up living a happy life transitioning or not, then whether they do is totally up to them and we shouldn't try to protect them from their own choices.

This hypothetical girl is too young to take such drastic and irreversible decisions. In most places, the law doesn't allow 12 year-olds to vote, drive a car, drink alcoholic beverages, smoke, consent to sexual relationships, get married, live alone, etcetera. No doctor would refer her for tubal ligation because of her young age, yet according to QT she is mature enough to get chemically castrated and get her breasts amputated. It's doubtfull that "transition" will be the panacea she thinks it is and whether she persist or desist from her "new identity" she will become a patient for life (keep in mind that "medical transition" is harsher in the female body as MarkTwainiac has detailed to you in other threads). Her personal relationships may deteriorate because she now will try to control how everyone else sees her and how they speak about her even when she is not present. And, very likely, she won't be able to opt out of sexism and misogyny: trans identified people are stil treated as their actual sex. That is why "transwomen" lead the movement and we mainly heard from "transmen" when they get pregnant...

I was invited and went to girls' sleepovers, I guess because I must have given off an intense gay aura or something.

And the girls' parents were okay with this even thought they knew you weren't a girl?

You literally can tho, u cn tlk lk ths nd ppl cn stl ndrstnd u, language is whatever you make of it! The meanings of words are always contextual and change over time.

And can you understand the following? Ne'a't hojna mjid¨pasd tish w?pt to¡!851 sjoo.añkm ablean airmb na wqimn.

Wait isn't this last bit at least a good thing? For trans Argentinians

I'll answer this in another comment because this may get a bit long...

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

All the people in my life could conspire to play me a big joke and refere to me as a man from now and even so I'll still know that I am a woman. The physical reality of my body will stay the same regardless of how everyone else call me.

This is exactly how I feel though...like I'm having some cosmic joke played on me, calling me something I know I'm not. My identity is the same regardless of physical reality.

trans identified people are stil treated as their actual sex.

Like everything else it's contextual. Ik I'm not leading anything, and passing trans men can escape some forms of misogyny. There's still a lot in the medical industry, and maybe problems dating, but we're not treated the same as others of our sex in every or even most situations.

This hypothetical girl is too young to take such drastic and irreversible decisions

They should still get some say in their medical care. I'd be open to having the minimum for hormones be 14 or 16, because I agree we have to balance how much we can be sure versus not torturing those who are sure. If someone regrets then we can support them after, requiring medication for life doesn't make you a bad person or anything.

And the girls' parents were okay with this even thought they knew you weren't a girl?

This was before I started transitioning so yeah it was boy derrple. I'm surprised by that too in hindsight, but it was never weird and they were my friends, I was just happy to be included. I'm glad I was trustworthy enough that they let me go.

Ne'a't hojna mjid¨pasd tish w?pt to¡!851 sjoo.añkm ablean airmb na wqimn.

I'd love to learn your conlang if that's what it is!

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

"medical transition" were legalized here.

Wait isn't this last bit at least a good thing? For trans Argentinians

I've many problems with that law. Let's start saying that there were no laws regarding "trans" issues before 2012. The only antecedents were a handful of legal cases ruling in favour of trans activists since the late 90's onwards regarding modifying legal documents and getting cosmetic surgeries to look more like the opposite sex. So, we went from 0 to 100 in a single law and there were really not debate about any of this. Newsmedia, regardless of political leanings, spreaded TRA's talking points about the law. MSM not only started deliberately misleading the public by using the "inclusive language" proposed by TRA. They sold the public the lie that this law represented a minor change that will greatly benefict a marginalized demography. There were no questions asked about whether there were a conflict of interest between women and males who claim to be "women", or whether "medically transition" actually works, or whether children should access any of this stuff (note: even pre-schoold kids have been able to to get their sex markers on their legal documents with the approval of their parents), or whether everyone should be forced to play along someone's cross-sex "identity", or whether "identity" should trump over material reality.

The main opposition came from the Catholic Church, which even to this day have little idea of what they are talking about as they lump together feminism, gay rights and trans activism under the name of ideología de género (literally gender ideology). They either can't see or don't want to see any conflict of interest between those groups. Also, religious zealots don't really care much about women, either.

Another problem I have is that I view transgenderism as the newest form of imperialism from the developed world. There are western rich people who are lobbying for this stuff in their home countries and beyond (1, 2, 3). I could talk about how much of this stuff doesn't make sense in languages other than English. For instance, the 2012 law talks about identidad de género (gender identity), but the actual word used in the official documents where the self-ID takes places is sexo (sex).

Now regarding the medical stuff, the law allows giving hormones on demand for minors as long as they have parental approval (or a judge order), and it allow surgeris for minors if they have both parental approval and a judge order. I suppose you'd view this a good thing, but I'm against the "transitioning" minors. And as I see it the risk of suicide is overstated (4).

As for the adult "transition", well, I think medice should be based on science and I believe in that "first, do no harm" stuff. And on one hand, I've yet to see evidence that any of this actually improves mental health(5, 6). On the other hand, there is evidence of all the health risk associated with it (7). And this is something that should be considered because the law not only say that all this stuff must be provided on-demand, but also it must be covered by both private and public health system. And whether the State should pay for this is not a minor detail. We live from economic crisis to economic crisis, wages are always running behind prices, our currency had lost a lot of zeros through history, and there is much corruption and former president Mauricio Macri got the country into an unpayable debt with the IMF (which also means the goverment has to follow their economic receipts that only favour the rich). Our public health system was overwhelmed even prior to the COVID pandemic, too. Yeah, I know some posters here will see me as an extremist, but I cannot get behind trans identified people getting this stuff paid by the State.

Also, apparently even body hair removal by electroysis is considered "trans health care". I mean, seriously? Why can't they just shave? After all, shouldn't shaving be "gender affirming"?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

regarding modifying legal documents and getting cosmetic surgeries to look more like the opposite sex.

Yeah that just seems like the basics?

or whether "medically transition" actually works

It generally does! But even if it didn't it should still be people's choice on what they do to their bodies x(

Also, religious zealots don't really care much about women, either.

Yeah I'm not a fan of the Catholic church either :/ too few groups seem to care about women's rights that aren't made up of women themselves

Another problem I have is that I view transgenderism as the newest form of imperialism from the developed world.

What? Like what's your basis for that, there have been trans or trans-identifying people across history it's not just a western phenomenon. I get there might be issues with translating the language though.

It's weird, because what you see as imperialism just seems like a human rights issue to me @_@ like trans people should be accepted in every nation and able to transition and change our documents, I support the Yogyakarta principles in general

Tbh I'm questioning some of these links because I hardly think that "transgender trend" is unbiased on the issue of minors transitioning...like they have a vested interest in opposing it that might not necessarily be based in fact. In the morning I can try and find more transpositive sources from what I vaguely remember. Thank you for posting them though, it's just rather late for me. But it's always at least... interesting to see what "anti-trans" groups are saying

As for the adult "transition", well, I think medice should be based on science and I believe in that "first, do no harm" stuff.

There's no universal definition of harm. What's harmful for someone isn't trans might be fine for someone who is. And I think transition should be based on autonomy, with medical guidance for safety. For every study GCers pull that claims no benefit there's another that clearly shows one, so I don't know if we can ever come to a consensus there.

So I've stopped trying to argue on the basis of whether transition helps or not, mostly. It doesn't matter whether it does, I'm going to do it anyway, with or without medical support. So it's better to have that support otherwise life will just be even harder for trans people.

And whether the State should pay for this is not a minor detail.

Trans people aren't going to cost a huge amount though? Like we're a small group and some just take hormones and don't get surgery, and hormones are pretty affordable. Compared to other economic crises trans people are likely a drop in the bucket.

Yeah, I know some posters here will see me as an extremist, but I cannot get behind trans identified people getting this stuff paid by the State...

I didn't know about the corruption, thank you for illuminating btw! I admit that trans healthcare probably isn't the most pressing issue there :/

At the same time though, those who aren't trans are prescribed gender affirming hormones. Men who have lower than average T can take T, women who are entering menopause can take estradiol to make their lives a bit easier. It's the same for us, being on hormones improves my mood and functioning. If nothing else, before documents or language or recognition, trans people should have healthcare

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

women who are entering menopause can take estradiol to make their lives a bit easier.

This just goes to show how little you know about the experience of older women (female humans, I mean). Since the big study was published in 2002 showing that estrogen replacement for menopausal women leads to higher rates of diseases like cancer, it's actually been pretty difficult for most women in peri-menopause or full menopause to get prescriptions for estrogens. In the first 10-15 years after 2002, it was pretty much impossible for older women in and after menopause to get prescription estradiol from a qualified, competent gynecologist, endocrinologist or other specialist in women's health care.

Also, one of the consequences of the study results published in 2002 was that the particular HRT formulations devised expressly for young and middle-aged women who had the ovaries removed or experienced ovarian failure prior to age 50 were taken off the market and went out of production. One good example is Estratest, a pill form of HRT that in the US used to be commonly prescribed to younger & MA women who had oophorectomy or disease that caused premature ovarian failure before reaching the age of natural menopause. Estratest tried to match and replace the natural hormones produced by the ovaries of younger and MA women by adding a small dose of testosterone to the estradiol that it mostly consisted of. Estratest was a godsend to millions of the women who used to take it, and many suffered horribly when it and all similar formulations were suddenly denied us and then yanked from the market.

Even today, when doctors have finally begun to ease up and stop being so completely withholding of estradiol scrips for female people, women (female ones, that is) with menopausal symptoms are usually made to go through a number of hoops and forced to try every other remedy under the sun before HCPs finally relent and prescribe Big Pharma estradiol, particularly in higher-dose forms administered orally, by patch or by injection. Moreover, women in their 40s and 50s who can get these scrips for peri- and full menopause symptoms are usually only allowed to stay on HRT at very low doses for very short periods of time. Only males who claim to have female gender identities are given prescription estradiol at high doses on demand - and since 2002, only they/you are allowed to stay on high dose Big Pharma estradiol for life.

Older women long past menopause who could benefit from estrogen therapy in their 60s, 70s, 80s and beyond to counteract health issues that are common in senior citizen-age women like chronic UTIs, vaginal pain and itching due to atrophy and osteoporosis are routinely denied HRT. If older women manage to get a prescription, it's typically only for very low-dose creams - and again for a very short time. If you don't believe me, I suggest you visit some care homes for the elderly and ask the old women there about their own "lived experience."

If you paid any attention whatsoever to the experiences that female human beings go through, and have gone through over the past 100 years, you'd know that in recent decades it's actually become much, much easier for males to get estradiol prescriptions for reasons of "gender affirmation" and "transition" than it is for actual women "of a certain age" to get scrips for estradiol because of genuine physical issues related to menopause. These days, a 72-year-old male like Caitlyn Jenner will be given high dose oral or injection estradiol for "gender transition" and "gender affirmation" just by asking. But a 72-year-old female who seeks estradiol for physical problems that commonly occur due to lack of estrogen in elderly women long past menopause like painful urination, urethral inflammation and bleeding, frequent UTIs and urinary incontinence will be told that those are just ordinary problems of female aging that she'll just have to learn to live with.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

regarding modifying legal documents and getting cosmetic surgeries to look more like the opposite sex.

Yeah that just seems like the basics?

I don't understand your point. I'm saying all this stuff was presented to the public as a settled issue in spite of not only being a radical change, but also it was something unheard of for most Argentinians.

What? Like what's your basis for that, there have been trans or trans-identifying people across history it's not just a western phenomenon. I get there might be issues with translating the language though.

All the historical examples I'seen have either been: (a) women who are being "transed" posthumously for defying sex-based roles or stereotypes, or for having disguised as men or used male pennames to go against the constraints of their times; (b) examples of so-called "third genders", where in certain cultures men (and, more rarely, women) are put into a special cast outside the social roles assigned to men and women. The problem with using "third genders" as examples is that they were/are still recognized by their sex in their own cultures. Refering to certain males as women is a new fenomenom who began in Western countries at the 20th century due to, I think, the development of new medical technologies (i.e. exogenous hormones and "SRS") which would allow them to appear more like the oppossite sex.

Here is an Indian woman talking the actual reality of Indian hijras. She also has lot to say in other articles of her website about how the Western "trans" movement is being imported in India at a very quick pace in contrast to women's rights there.

It's weird, because what you see as imperialism just seems like a human rights issue to me @_@ like trans people should be accepted in every nation and able to transition and change our documents, I support the Yogyakarta principles in general

I imagined you supported the Yogyakarta principles. My point to mentioning them was there are rich people who are lobbying for this stuff around the world. The quick pace at which laws and policies are being changed, often without public knowledge, the way this is being supported by a good bunch of MSM and big companies-including Big Tech companies like Google-, the way dissenter's voices (particularly female dissenters) are being suppresed... Nothing of this looks like a grass-roots movement. For instance, you can read here about how a law firm advised British trans activist to hide their goals, and you can read here how the ACLU blocked a women's request about the number of trans identified males being held in the female estate in Washington.