you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Until they can do a full body/brain transplant you’re going to be male.

This is actually what I want and hope for!

you could go outside because most people aren’t think in about you

But if they think of me in that way then it ruins my whole day lol, I'm just saying my participation in public is totally dependent on being able to pass. If I start not passing, then I won't choose to keep participating in public. I get my groceries and medication delivered, I take a vitamin D supplement, etc.

If your dysphoria were being treated more effectively you’d understand this.

This is the treatment for it. There's no "other way" right now that reliably cures dysphoria, and I won't accept a "treatment" that fundamentally changes my gender identity bc that's just conversion. It wouldn't be me.

There’s nothing you can do.

Well fuck I guess that's it then?

Waking up in a different body is not the same as waking up in the body you’ve always had and wishing you woke up with a different body

If it were you, how would you know any different? Both people would feel wrong about the body they're now in, why wouldn't you tell the person who got swapped to accept reality or whatever? You say there's a difference but that's only because you know a swap happened, for the person living it the circumstances of how it happened don't matter. It's just sanism, discarding people's mental states as disordered because they don't match your worldview of the ways it's okay for people to think or be.

You can say you know it in your core- you don’t.

I do, it's still my body, I'm the one who decides if it's wrong for me or not.

You want to be stealth, meaning mislead and lie to people for the rest of your life? So… you want to be dishonest with every relationship or friendship you have and yet I assume would want those people to love you for you and be able to trust you as you actively continue to withhold information that could matter deeply to them so you can have the life you want? And that’s morally sound to you? And it wouldn’t bother you that you’d never know if they’d accept you for all of you?

If the alternative is people knowing an awful, terrible truth about me then yeah I'd rather just lie. I have spaces where I'm open about being trans, mostly just to other trans people. It does bother me irl, but I do not think that I am worthy of anyone's love, so I just keep pretending that I am. Tbh I don't really have plans to date someone who isn't trans again, I am only going to date trans people in the future. I don't like being dishonest but I'm an order of magnitude more ashamed of being amab than I am of being stealth.

you’d never know if they’d accept you for all of you?

I kinda assume that no one offline would ever accept me for all of me. That's why I don't let anyone offline see or know all of me.

Even if it’s just the language meant to describe and define women, why take that from them?

How do you own a word, how is there any giving or taking? When people say women in general they still think of you, not me. If I use a different word for myself then I just feel like a freak or "other". I want to be normal, to not have to pretend, to just belong without being some weird outsider. If everyone in my life calls me a woman and I don't tell anyone then what am I taking? You should still be able to describe yourself idk, maybe trans women just need to be quieter

It’s not me who offers no recourse for your pain, it’s life. It’s biology. It’s fact.

Then I'll change life, I'll change biology, I'll change fact, I won't just accept this being the way things are? It's horrible.

If there were alternative treatments you very well could still be alive without transition

Alternative treatments I would never have consented to.

Calling someone mentally ill is meant to try to explain that the issue is with the brain

The issue is with the connection between brain and body. If I were female or didn't have a body my quality of life would be much higher. I don't understand how you can simply presume that the mind, that someone's sense of self, must be wrong and must be changed. When the mental issue is due to something physical then physical changes could alleviate it.

The people who try to “cure” you may actually be able to. Maybe not you specifically, but many dysphoric people.

I think that encouraging this on people erases a great deal of culture from the world though. If gender variance is seen as a disease instead of a state of being then everyone will just be "cis" and I find that super depressing and boring?

Is the doctor wrong for keeping you alive against your will?

Yes. Also dysphoria doesn't make someone insane, it doesn't make us not of sound mind. I generally oppose any violation of patient autonomy even if that would include letting someone die.

what is the issue in waiting until you’ve exhausted all other alternatives

All those alternatives do things I would hate and would kill the person that I am today...there's no comfort in trying to make myself be the good Catholic boy my parents wanted, because I wouldn't even be around to experience the peace of not having dysphoria. Someone else living in my body would be, but we'd be so unalike that I don't consider us the same person.

So why should we treat this one disorder by indulging their symptoms when we wouldn’t do that for anyone else?

A lot of other conditions are "indulged" contextually. Have you ever read "the man who mistook his wife for a hat"? I seem to remember stories of patients with a single, odd compulsion that resisted treatment. The best result for them was just to healthily do that compulsion in a way that didn't negatively affect their life. I.e if someone can only be functional by wearing a certain hat every day then it's easier to just let them wear the hat. It's easier to just let people transition. We will do it anyway, there is a huge DIY scene.

Sex matters and becomes relevant in the day to day for a multitude of reasons.

I'll simply avoid as many situations in which it matters as I can. Like the classic one I hear here is sex on IDs, if having the "wrong" marker will get me killed because of the medical treatment I receive in an accident, then yeah I'd rather die than live through the constant embarrassment that was having an M on my license.

Most people aren’t willing to pretend it doesn’t

So you could support the development of transition care so that more people can pass and you won't even have to think about us?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

How would a full body transplant even happen? You just switch bodies with a transman? Idk how it would actually happen

You wouldn’t know they think of you thst way because they wouldn’t tell you. I moved recently but when I lived in LA I saw obviously trans people all the time and never said a word or gave indication I noticed. You’d be fine. Nobody cares but you.

Your dysphoria has clearly not been treated. One aspect of it has been alleviated and obviously not enough for you. A cure means you don’t have it anymore. Trans people obviously still struggle with it post transition, even if it’s more manageable. There’s no other way right now because tras call any attempt to find other ways conversion therapy. Other ways could be developed. We don’t do lobotomies anymore, they found ways to actually treat the things they were giving lobotomies for.

One is “now in” a body. The other is in the same body they’ve always been in. The situations aren’t comparable.

It’s literally a mental disorder. I’m astonished you would dispute that after acknowledging your mental health issues before.

If you’re willing to lie to every single person in your life and you think that’s acceptable then you’re just confirming my point. Narcissism.

I don’t own the word woman. The word woman has a clear neutral meaning and it applies to me and not to males. That’s my point. Every single word you typed has a meaning. According to you if it suits me I can just change the meaning of select words you’ve used and make them mean that you agree with everything I said? And you can’t get upset because you don’t own those words? Great. So you agree transition should be a last resort and spaces for females should remain male free. Awesome. Glad we reached a consensus.

I wasn’t talking about you’re body- I was talking about your mind. Your body is male so it’s ridiculous to claim the identity of the body opposite your own. You have no internal frame of reference for it. And gender identity doesn’t magically give you one. You cannot ever know womanhood.

Good luck changing biology lol

How do you change a fact?

Yet again, things are how they are whether you accept that or not.

You wouldn’t have choice to consent, the process would be exhausting those other forms of treatment before a therapist approves of transition. You can resist the treatments- you’d still have to wait so why not try to be mentally healthy first?

The issue is with the connection between brain and body, I agree. Your body is doing what it’s supposed to, your brain is what’s rejecting your body. It’s still a mental health issue. You can wax poetic about it all you want- it’s undeniable mental.

You don’t know what the alternative is to know you’d hate it. You’re making a huge assumption based on nothing concrete because this whole topic of alternative treatments is hypothetical.

No one but you can live in your body. That’s fact. So as I said before, you’d always be you because that’s all you (or any of us) can ever be.

Please list the mental disorders/illness we treat by indulgence and how we indulge them.

The issue with trans people is it’s not just your life. Everyone else has to participate in your treatment and that’s dangerous for your mental health and an unfair burden on others, including complete strangers. If someone wants to remove a limb it only affects them and society would in fact recognize them as what they wanted to be because they actually can become what they wanted to be. That’s not the case for trans people.

It’s not as simple as you think to avoid the situations where sex matters.

I used to bartend- I never, not once, checked the sex on an id. People check dob, names and pictures. I’m sure there are instances when they check sex. But those instances are when it’s relevant so a falsified legal document could actually be what makes you die. If you’re willing to die rather than have accurate identification- how the hell can you argue that’s not mental illness?

I don’t support transition at all, I’m just not pushing to stop because I don’t care what others do to themselves. I don’t think there’s much that can be done that’s not being done now. Male bodies are different from female bodies in structure in thousands of ways. Even when they get to the kids it doesn’t always make passing a guarantee. You can only fuck with nature so much.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You can only fuck with nature so much.

Nature won't control me, I won't let it.

I'd rather just be dead right now than listen to this, thanks for your time. If nothing else you've helped me fully realize my hopelessness and despair. Thank you for that, really. I wish you well and everyone else here too <3

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Take care of yourself

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wish I could say I will haha, it's tough to see the point anymore. Thank you though