Calls for trans elimination

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I think the percentage I most see (whether it’s accurate or not) is a 60/40 split. 60% is just not enough women for me to disregard the 40% who aren’t comfortable. That’s still a lot of uncomfortable women.

GC women hang in gc spaces, and there are plenty of GC women who keep their views to themselves in other spaces. Just because you haven’t interacted with or spotted one doesn’t mean they aren’t there if you’re talking about spaces that have nothing to do with gender/sexuality etc.

I know plenty of women who are gc offline but play along online because they enjoy spaces that happen to make people follow specific sub rules or whatever, for what it’s worth.

Im not asking you to get emotional here, I’m just saying that I don’t know if trans people can always see the lasting symptoms of their dysphoria as clearly as people without it (who know what it is) do. It’s not just you, there are several qt I’ve noticed this with. It’s like with other mental health issues, the person dealing with it doesn’t always see what others notice.

If i worked with a trans person I’d use the name they currently use. I just wouldn’t pretend they were the opposite sex. Is pressuring/demanding someone conform to your beliefs acceptable in the work place? I’m not saying that a trans person at my workplace couldn’t call themselves whatever they want and use whatever language suits them- I’m saying I shouldn’t have to participate.

Biology is factual and provable. Perception varies. Biology is significantly more important because it’s accurate and dependable.

When you are eventually biologically a woman, I will call you one.

However- you’d still be trans. And I’d still be uncomfortable about some things.

You act as if people can’t mistake something they see for something it isn’t. It happens all the time. You reach for sugar and end up with salt. You think the fuit in the bowl is real but it’s artificial. You think the person you’re looking at is white but they’re a poc. You think the person in front of you is a female but they’re actually a male.

I know what someone is without looking at them because I know what a man is and what a woman is. I could possibly be mistaken once in a blue moon. That doesn’t alter the reality of the situation.

Males aren’t supposed to have the hormone levels you have, at least they typically don’t. You’re intentionally giving yourself hormone levels your body isn’t supposed to have. I have to come back and find the right wording for this sorry. I’m tired but can’t sleep.

It’s not what I want you to be. It’s what you just factually, biologically, really are. It has nothing to do with me.

There was never anything wrong with your body. The issue is mental. It’s a mental health issue. That’s my whole point. Lots of people who get treatment for mental health issues change- it means you change, not that you aren’t yourself. You don’t know how you’d change so it’s easy to get dramatic and act like you’d be a whole different person. You’d be you, because that’s all you can ever be.

Wtf is personal injustice?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

just saying that I don’t know if trans people can always see the lasting symptoms of their dysphoria as clearly as people without it

I've had this my whole life and I've been lectured by all kinds of people on how what I feel is apparently wrong, it hasn't ever convinced me at all how to change what I feel.

Is pressuring/demanding someone conform to your beliefs acceptable in the work place?

Pressuring someone to respect their coworkers as human beings and not to like, harass them is acceptable, so

Biology is factual and provable.

Why would I let a stranger ever prove to themselves what my biology is though? It's not like my biology is identical to someone who's not on hormones either. I have breasts, the shape of my body has changed, that alone is sufficient to fool people.

However- you’d still be trans

Great to know being trans is an eternal curse that will forever mark me as being a person unworthy of trust who must be assumed dangerous x(

That doesn’t alter the reality of the situation.

We have nothing else though. I can't snap my fingers and be female yet, all I can do is quiet my troubled mind by pretending. like, idk, I'm not oblivious, I try very hard to live inoffensively, but it apparently is not enough and you don't want people to be able to pretend and keep their real sex private?

You’re intentionally giving yourself hormone levels your body isn’t supposed to have

Haha it's okay I was really tired too. Idk why should I care what my body is "supposed" to have, tho That's not even a small comfort, my "natural" hormones made me feel like a zombie. So yeah I intentionally change them, and there isn't anything wrong with that, it's not the "wrong" levels if I'm way more functional.

Does someone who isn't trans, who has low T, being prescribed a T supplement, is doing that creating an imbalance? If being low T is what their body naturally is, then they shouldn't ever change that, apparently eye roll

It’s what you just factually, biologically, really are

Biology is not destiny, I will either be a woman or I will die trying it's that simple, I refuse to let something as silly as being born wrong decide that for me :(

There was never anything wrong with your body. The issue is mental.

And I trust my mind and how I feel on this. Why shouldn't I? The alternative would be accepting that I'm just wrong and I should be male, but I genuinely don't see the point or value in that. My body isn't doing the thinking, it's just...there, the idea that I should treat it as "proof" of what I "am" requires me to discard 20 years of anguish and stop thinking that what I feel matters. I won't do that--i know how I feel, no matter what my body is. So I will not fix it by fixing how I feel, I will fix it by changing my body.

Wtf is personal injustice?

Living in a state where your body and half the world are against you makes me feel like I'm being karmically punished, and kinda inspires me to keep going despite that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I’m not interested in convincing you that it’s wrong. I know what’s true and what’s not. And it’s clear that whether they can say it or not, most other people do as well. I understand you have a condition, I’m not your therapist, it’s not on me to convince you to accept reality. What I’m saying is, regardless of what you can or can’t accept, no one else should have to adjust for you or pretend for you.

Not pretending you believe the same things as a coworker is not harassment. Trying to force someone to conform to your beliefs however…

Just because you altered your appearance doesn’t mean other people can’t tell you’re trans lmao. Sometimes you don’t get to “let” people know because we… have eyes and ears etc. A lot of trans people overestimate their ability to pass. A lot. And a lot of people who aren’t trans are being kind or just minding their business by not letting you know we know. Sorry if that bursts your bubble.

If you think breasts and fat redistribution conceals maleness- they don’t. They really don’t lol.

Didn’t say it’s a curse, didn’t say it marked you as a bad person- it’s a fact you’d still be trans regardless of what type of person you are

I don’t want my rights or spaces or language to be held hostage to your desire to keep your sex private. No. Absolutely not. Other than those types of issues (and the issue of consent when it comes to dating/sex) idgaf

Trans people don’t start out with a hormone imbalance. They induce one. That’s the difference. If someone’s testosterone levels are not what they naturally are supposed to be they may go on hrt. Trans people don’t go on hrt. They take cross sex hormones to mimic or match the levels in the opposite sex. It’s not the same thing at all and it’s ridiculous to pretend it is.

Sorry to tell you: you’ll die trying. Biology isn’t destiny. It’s reality.

You shouldn’t trust your mind because you have a mental illness that affects your mind and your perception of your body. That’s what I’ve been saying forever. It’s not a you should be male situation. Fact of the matter is- you are male. There is no point or value in that- it just is the truth.

You can’t ever change your body to make you not male, but as I said. I don’t care how you feel or see yourself- the world shouldn’t have to adjust for your feelings or pretend that you’re not a male. Other people shouldn’t have to participate in your sense of self and females shouldn’t lose their rights because of it.

Half the world isn’t against you- they just aren’t willing to pretend they don’t understand biology or reality for you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

no one else should have to adjust for you or pretend for you.

This is literally why I'm stealth though, offline. I don't give people the satisfaction of deciding whether to pretend or not, I prefer them not to know.

A lot of trans people overestimate their ability to pass. A lot. And a lot of people who aren’t trans are being kind or just minding their business by not letting you know we know. Sorry if that bursts your bubble.

Gosh I'm so bored of this narrative. Trans people aren't clueless it's not usually hard to tell if someone is being awkwardly polite. I've lived with people for months before and they assumed I menstruated. I've been in servers I'm not allowed to be in, because my voice is fairly passing. And the number of us that pass will only increase as the average starting age goes down and transition care improves.

I don’t want my rights or spaces or language to be held hostage to your desire to keep your sex private

I'm not holding anything hostage I'm just not going to give up my privacy.

If someone’s testosterone levels are not what they naturally are supposed to be they may go on hrt.

I don't understand why we should at all care about what's natural? Natural doesn't necessarily mean better, or more functional. I'm happier with my hormone levels now than they were naturally and that's all that should matter.

Sorry to tell you: you’ll die trying.

I'm resigned to that, it's better than giving up.

Fact of the matter is- you are male

I don't accept that truth and I will change it in as many ways as become available to me x(

You can’t ever change your body to make you not male

I'll gladly settle for making it not observably male to the casual observer. Whether it is or isn't is kinda secondary.

You shouldn’t trust your mind because you have a mental illness that affects your mind and your perception of your body

Having a gender identity that differs from how I was born isn't a mental illness any more than it would be if it aligned with how I was born. It's not the norm, but neither is being gay or bi or lesbian. It's just part of human variation and only needs to be fixed if the incongruence causes someone distress, which is the whole reason I'm fixing my body.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Im fairly sure some people know or suspect but okay. I’ve acknowledged in the past that if no one knows no one is uncomfortable tho. What I’m saying is that when we do know we should not have to play along with anything we don’t believe in.

Child experimentation doesn’t guarantee passability. Kim Petra, Nikkitutorials, jazz jennings- NONE of them pass for female

As far as anecdotes go- I’ve had a trans person come out to me and my only response was that I already knew. They were shocked. It varies based on the person so if you pass good for you- thst doesn’t mean most trans people do or will.

It also doesn’t mean that passing makes you something you aren’t.

Invading my spaces and robbing me of privacy from males is what I mean by holding women hostage

I don’t care that you have a hormonal imbalance- but that’s not healthy long term and is an issue I have with transition. Every trans person I know is suffering from some level of negative side effects of the synthetic hormones they take. Maybe you’re fine now- you likely won’t be in ten years. The point remains: your hormone levels don’t make you not male or a woman.

As long as you’re resigned to it, good for you I guess

You may not accept that truth but you’ve acknowledged that you can’t make it untrue- you can only alter yourself as much as possible to make it less apparent. My point is still that biology prevails. Even if you successfully pass, you’re still 100% male because that’s how biology works. I’m not saying anything about your feelings, I’m referring to what the reality of the situation is regardless of your feelings.

People are learning more and more what to look for to identify trans people. Maybe that’s shitty but it’s true. There are whole YouTube channels dedicated to teaching people what to look out for. Again- maybe that’s shitty, but it’s true. You won’t be able to hide from everyone all the time. But I respect that you can acknowledge that you can’t change your sex at least. I’m not even saying I don’t understand the desire to be seen as female- I do- I just don’t think it matters to anyone but transwomen. Again, my point is simply that regardless of perception, fact exists and can’t be changed.

Dysphoria is a mental illness. Thinking you are a woman when you are born the sex that can’t be a woman is a word I can’t use here but a mental illness. Gender identity is undefinable bull shit that means nothing to anyone but the people who claim to have one. Being a male who decides that they understand what it means to be a woman, particularly thinking they understand it enough to claim it as a sense of identity is indicative of narcissism- which I believe is classified as a mental health issue. Being a male who thinks it’s okay to tell women what a woman is is misogyny- which may not exactly be a mental illness but is a red flag.

Homo/bisexual people aren’t asking anyone to play pretend for them so it not being the norm doesn’t really carry the same weight or cause the same problems as trans people demanding we pretend a male can be anything other than a boy or man and a female can be anything other than a girl or woman.

As I said, if you feel the need to cosmetically alter your body go for it- I just don’t think it means anything significant to anyone but you.

And for what it’s worth- thinking you’re perfectly normal healthy body needs to be “fixed” by taking hormones for the side effects and cosmetic surgery that have a high rate of complications is indicative of mental illness as well.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Child experimentation doesn’t guarantee passability.

Not yet but it makes it more likely. I'd also say i's pointless to discuss the passability of people known to be trans, you can't make an unbiased judgment. And I never truly saw anyone speculate on Nikkie before she came out, it just feels like more "we can always tell" nonsense. It's not like everyone is perfectly masculine or feminine and that people can't change enough things with hormones or surgery to "get by" in terms of passing.

They were shocked

Yeah if that were me that would make me not want to be friends with you anymore I think, nothing against you, I'm sure you're amazing! Just, I wouldn't be able to think about anything else and it'd be a moment that kept me up at night.

effects of the synthetic hormones they take

It depends on delivery method and specific medications from what I've seen. Like, taking pills is going to tax your liver over time, that's part of why I switched to injections. And after gonadectomy one wouldn't need to take E or T blockers which tend to be the medications with the most side effects? We don't always get the best stuff either, spironolactone is still frequently the only T blocker you can get in the US despite tons of community and anecdotal issues with it.

your hormone levels don’t make you not male or a woman.

Okay? I'm not aiming to have identical levels to a woman, I don't have the biological equipment to necessitate any sort of cycling. The closest I get is the dip before I inject. I'm just generally aiming for whatever levels will be most stable for my mood and give me consistent results in terms of secondary sex characteristics.

Even if you successfully pass, you’re still 100% male because that’s how biology works.

I guess I don't really get how this is some sort of gotcha? Like I just don't care because at that point it would be totally irrelevant to 90% of my life. I'm content to pretend until or if science lets me do more.

You won’t be able to hide from everyone all the time.

I'm thinking of that meme, improvise, adapt, overcome lol.

If it gets really bad and ppl do start clocking me I'll just avoid going out as much as possible. I work remotely right now and interact with my coworkers over video, so I have more control over my presentation. (even before this when I was in person I didn't have any issues though)

Having a decent voice, and to a lesser extent masks, kind of carries me in a lot of situations I think. I mean I never pass to myself in the mirror but I also can't rely on my self-judgment because it's proven to be distorted and unreliable.

you can’t change your sex at least

I'll accept that I can't right now but I'd like to in the future. And...idk if I'm honest I don't really understand what is meant by that statement. Idk if you mean chromosomal sex or genital sex or gonads or some combination of them. Ik you don't mean "apparent sex", even though to me that's a meaningful change too?

Gender identity is undefinable bull shit that means nothing to anyone but the people who claim to have one

No I actually mostly agree with this! Well, I generally care about other people's identity and willing to respect it, but yeah. That just stems from me knowing what it's like to have a strong sense of being something that no one else understands or sees.

Being a male who decides that they understand what it means to be a woman, particularly thinking they understand it enough to claim it as a sense of identity is indicative of narcissism- which I believe is classified as a mental health issue

I don't think I "understand" what it means to be a woman more than anyone else does. I just have always felt that way, it wasn't a conscious decision. Idk why people are so quick to call trans people narcissistic. I don't lack empathy, if you needed help i would try to give it even tho we're super different. I just have a gender identity that's been part of who I am since I was little. I don't understand how that's narcissistic, I'm not intending to tell you who or what you are, I'm just saying what I am

demanding we pretend a male can be anything other than a boy or man

Why not? Why should people be stuck forever the way they were born? I feel like a horrible, evil monster because I'm amab, I second-guess like everything I do because I don't want to be an abuser. To the point where people who care about me tell me "you should stop caring about what T*RFs say or whether someone will judge you for something you couldn't control". All the friends I've confided in on how trapped I feel for being born male, express concern. it broke up my relationship with my last partner. I just don't know what else I should be doing, I can't just accept being this way, so i just want to be seen as something else even if it's not real.

I'm sorry for the emotion I know I'm just a random person on here, begging for the chance to just live my life in the only way I comfortably can. If I have to be a shut-in to avoid hurting women or girls with my presence then I'm already kinda halfway there.

thinking you’re perfectly normal healthy body

I think I just need to give up explaining it to people who aren't dysphoric, at this point. Was...was having a healthy male body supposed to make me happy? Because it just doesn't work like that, we aren't operating under the same definition of health at all. My state of living and body would probably be intolerable to a man, most men like having high testosterone and functional sex organs. But I'm only unhappy with the things I haven't been able to change yet; the ones I have changed have made me a lot happier!

If that's mental illness, then I don't want to be mentally well.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I had no idea Kim Petras is trans. I saw a pic of him online and immediately knew so I google and confirmed. Don’t know any of his music or anything else about him- he is an obvious male and that’s the only reason I know who he is and his appearance is how I found out he was male. Jennings has a clearly masculine face. There have always been rumors about Nikki well before confirmation. We can (usually) tell.

Until they develop surgery to change your hands, neck, shoulders, thighs, knees etc there will always be obvious tells. Sorry.

They were shocked because they thought they passed. Pretty much everyone around them knew. That’s all my point was, that you can think you pass because others don’t let on that you don’t. We can go back and forth about more, but it is what it is.

I mean… if you want to hide, then hide. As I said I don’t care what trans people choose to do. The point is still that you can’t know for sure if nobody knows because most of us don’t care to say anything about it because we don’t gaf. But I’m not talking about just you- I’m talking in general.

As I said, every trans person I know suffers from side effects directly related to the hormones they take. Long term hormones is bound to have repercussions when your body was never meant to have them. I’m glad you’re healthy though

I care about people’s identity when it’s rooted in reality and truth. I don’t care about it when it’s rooted in something they’d never be able to understand.

You can say you just knew you were a woman- that’s the problem. You can’t know something you don’t inhabit. You can cling to the concept because it’s the only alternative, doesn’t mean you know shit about it.

You don’t know you’re a woman. You think you’re one.

People are quick to call trans people narcissistic because many of them are. You don’t see it because it’s possible you are. As I said in a previous comment, people struggling with the issue don’t always see what others see. You don’t get why trans people are seen as narcissists- a lot of others do. The whole fucking lgbt community is pretty much focused on the t now. You demand language and definition changes that would happen solely for your benefit, that women have no say in their spaces and sports because you want access to them, and demand that others pretend that what you want to be seen as is what you are when you’re actually the opposite (not you you- trans community in general you). That’s all pretty narcissistic. It’s not enough for you to have surgery or hormones etc, the whole world has to go along with it.

The identity you’re claiming belongs to another group of people. How can you claim it for yourself if you weren’t a part of that group when you claimed it (and I’d say still aren’t)? That’s a response to the next paragraph but is also narcissistic af

How can you tell me that you are what I am? Seriously how can a male person tell a female person “I’m a woman” and expect to be taken seriously? I’ll never get this.

You feel like an evil monster. In reality you’re just a human who happens to be male. How you feel doesn’t change facts.

Saying a male is a boy or man and a female is girl or woman is not limiting to them to anything but reality. It’s not saying that can’t do whatever they want with their lives, it’s saying that they have a sex. Man and woman, girl and boy- sexed terms. That’s all they are, terms to describe one of the two types of humans.

If i knew you I’d be concerned if you told me you feel trapped as a male. Unfortunately you’d still be a male. It’s just a fact. It’s not anyone fault that that’s the situation. It’s a shitty situation I’m sure, but again- it’s reality.

Your body was healthy though, objectively. At least I presume. Again this is a fact. Unless they have an actual issue or deformity etc, trans people start out with healthy bodies. The issue is mental. I don’t need to have dysphoria to understand what a healthy body is.

It wasn’t supposed to make you happy. It wasn’t supposed to make you anything. Its just your body. And it was, I presume, normally developed until your interfered because of your mental health issue. You only don’t have high testosterone and functional sex organs because you intentionally altered your body. So it doesn’t really mean anything that most men wouldn’t want to live in your body. Your body would have been like most men’s if you hadn’t transitioned. I get you don’t want that- all I was saying that having a healthy body you alter as much as possible in order to appear to be the opposite sex is not indicative of a mentally healthy person. The fact that instead of addressing that you gave the response you gave also points to issues with your mental health. Which is what I’ve been saying this whole time.

What you described is actually not mental illness. Being a male with a typical level of testosterone and functioning genitals because you didn’t take cross sex hormones over an extensive period of time in order to look like the opposite sex and not being disgusted by your male body for no reason other than it being a male body is usually viewed as mentally sound.

Eta- to be clear, I’m not passing judgment on people with mental health issues. I’ve had them before (obviously not dysphoria) and I’ve witnessed people k love deal with them. I don’t use the words to try to be mean or negative, it’s just the only phrasing that feels accurate. Mental health is important and I’m not in any way trying to dismiss, belittle or throw it in anyone’s face. I hope that’s clear to anyone who bothers to read my comments

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Until they develop surgery to change your hands, neck, shoulders, thighs, knees etc there will always be obvious tells.

I was actually to look into one of these at a clinic in Ukraine but then, well, stuff happened. If that's all it takes I will just wait until that's more mainstream.

They were shocked because they thought they passed

Yeah this just makes me want to sh ugh, I need to not go outside for a while

Long term hormones is bound to have repercussions when your body was never meant to have them.

My mind is meant to have them. You believe prescriptively that the only hormone balance someone can be functional on is what's normal or natural. I say that we should let people decide for themselves and pick what's easiest on them, even if there are side effects. Taking estradiol could be lethal for all I care, a few years of relative mental peace is worth it.

I don’t care about it when it’s rooted in something they’d never be able to understand.

What would it take for someone like me to understand? Because I'll do that, alright? Idk

How can you tell me that you are what I am?

It's not logical, it's just something I know in the core of who I am. If you woke up in a different body you'd still be you and you might feel strongly disassociated from that body. That's how it is for us. I'm trapped in a body I hate and the only thing that's ever actually helped, is something that GCers want to take away.

It’s not enough for you to have surgery or hormones etc, the whole world has to go along with it.

That's because hormones and surgery aren't good enough on their own and won't change legal documents. Maybe if everyone passed in every context then all trans people could assimilate into society and be stealth.

Seriously how can a male person tell a female person “I’m a woman”

I'm not necessarily the same as you, we're different people with different sets of experiences. I'm not saying our experiences or bodies are identical but that my sense of self is such that the only way I'm at all comfortable living is if I can be mistaken as female sometimes.

Saying a male is a boy or man and a female is girl or woman is not limiting to them to anything but reality.

You offer us literally no recourse to our pain, then. Like, I'm saying that I cannot, will not live accepting that reality, and your response is to keep trying to get us to do so? Ik transactivists can be awful, but treating all of us based on our sex because you think reality is all that matters is just inhumane.

Your body would have been like most men’s if you hadn’t transitioned.

And I wouldn't have been alive.

not indicative of a mentally healthy person.

Wow thanks this changes my whole worldview and definitely makes me want to detransition...no like actually what is calling mentally ill supposed to actually do? It won't change my situation, it will just open me up to people trying to remove my autonomy and "cure" me.

What you described is actually not mental illness

How do you know that dysphoria is a mental illness and not just a natural reaction to having a brain that rejects one's sexed body? And I'm not saying that there r man brains or woman brains, but that trans people's brains may just be wired differently than non-trans people. What would be sufficient in order for us to have a place in society that isn't just only being seen as our sex?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Okay…

You’re gonna be waiting forever. They’d have to pretty much rearrange you’re entire skeleton to not have any give always that you’re male. Until they can do a full body/brain transplant you’re going to be male.

Even if you don’t pass, you could go outside because most people aren’t think in about you or worried about you. We truly don’t care. Granted some people may- but that’s true for females and poc and lgb etc, most people don’t care when they see us… some do.

No part of your body is meant to have the hormone levels you have. You want them and think you need them because of dysphoria. Dysphoria doesn’t change what your body needs and how it’s supposed to function. If your dysphoria were being treated more effectively you’d understand this.

The only way you’d understand womanhood/being a female is by being a female. There’s nothing you can do.

Waking up in a different body is not the same as waking up in the body you’ve always had and wishing you woke up with a different body

You can say you know it in your core- you don’t. You have never existed in a female body to know what that is like. Even today any experience you may have is that of a male who (as you say) is perceived as female. It’s still a male perspective.

Again- that’s narcissism. Getting to do what you want to your body and with your life and leaving everyone else out of it is not enough. The whole world has to bend for you? And you think that’s reasonable?

You want to be stealth, meaning mislead and lie to people for the rest of your life? So… you want to be dishonest with every relationship or friendship you have and yet I assume would want those people to love you for you and be able to trust you as you actively continue to withhold information that could matter deeply to them so you can have the life you want? And that’s morally sound to you? And it wouldn’t bother you that you’d never know if they’d accept you for all of you?

I know we are different people. We are also different sexes. And the term you are using, the term you’re tying to claim is some sort of identity, is the only word in the world that is meant solely to distinguish between me and you and acknowledge the differences between us. You seek to erase that by altering the word to suit you. I get you feel how you do about your body- but why take from women in order to alleviate your distress? Even if it’s just the language meant to describe and define women, why take that from them?

It’s not me who offers no recourse for your pain, it’s life. It’s biology. It’s fact. It’s your own body. Once again, Idgaf if you accept reality or not. Reality exists regardless of your acceptance. What I want is to not have my spaces or rights or language corrupted for your benefit.

If there were alternative treatments you very well could still be alive without transition. We won’t ever know. But my point was just that bodies are not unhealthy just because the mind rejects them. It wasn’t about your feelings, I was responding to discussing whether or not your body was objectively healthy or not pre transition and it was.

Calling someone mentally ill is meant to try to explain that the issue is with the brain not the body. It was stated because this whole time I’ve been saying that you can’t fix the mental by altering the physical. Even now with you having transitioned you’re talking about putting your brain in a computer, hiding because a fucking stranger may notice that youre male, wanting to kill yourself rather than live i. Your body as it would naturally look- that’s mental illness. Stating it doesn’t take the mental illness away, but it still needs to be acknowledged that this is severe mental illness on display.

The people who try to “cure” you may actually be able to. Maybe not you specifically, but many dysphoric people. Which is why in my first comment I said if a therapist/psychologist has attempted other forms of treatment and the patient is no better then I would understand then recommending transition as a last resort. Something tells me you’d be one of those patients anyway.

And many patients have to have their autonomy “removed” because they aren’t of sound mind. I’m not saying you’re one of those people, to be clear, but you act as if it’s never okay for doctors or whomever to intervene and make choices for their patients but it happens all the time when necessary. If you were suicidal you’d be put on watch and possibly medicated and hospitalized- you don’t want that, you want to die. Is the doctor wrong for keeping you alive against your will?

Trying other forms of treatment before resorting to the most drastic treatment possible is reasonable. It just doesn’t automatically give any dysphoric person what they want and that is what seems to be the problem. If you’re willing to literally surgically alter every part of your skeleton to appear female, what is the issue in waiting until you’ve exhausted all other alternatives to do something that extreme?

I know it’s a mental illness because it’s not normal for a brain to reject one’s sexed body lol

Trans people’s (or rather dysphoric people’s) brains are wired differently. As are bipolar people and schizophrenic people and pretty much any one else with a mental disorder/illness. You not what’s not wired differently? Their bodies. They still have a sex just like the bipolar person or schizophrenic person. So why should we treat this one disorder by indulging their symptoms when we wouldn’t do that for anyone else?

You’re always going to be seen as your sex by society. Maybe some will pretend that’s not the case, but there will always be a need or reason for distinguishing between the sex you wish you were and the sex you are. So even if we all pretended we thought TW were women, there’d still be people putting qualifiers and limits on that. And there’d still be discussions about whether this type of woman should be eligible for this scholarship or grant, if this type of woman should job that was designated for a woman, this sport meant to provide equality for females, or even just wanting to date or be friends with you. Sex matters and becomes relevant in the day to day for a multitude of reasons. Most people aren’t willing to pretend it doesn’t so a small portion of the population can feel validated in their sense of self. And they shouldn’t have to.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Until they can do a full body/brain transplant you’re going to be male.

This is actually what I want and hope for!

you could go outside because most people aren’t think in about you

But if they think of me in that way then it ruins my whole day lol, I'm just saying my participation in public is totally dependent on being able to pass. If I start not passing, then I won't choose to keep participating in public. I get my groceries and medication delivered, I take a vitamin D supplement, etc.

If your dysphoria were being treated more effectively you’d understand this.

This is the treatment for it. There's no "other way" right now that reliably cures dysphoria, and I won't accept a "treatment" that fundamentally changes my gender identity bc that's just conversion. It wouldn't be me.

There’s nothing you can do.

Well fuck I guess that's it then?

Waking up in a different body is not the same as waking up in the body you’ve always had and wishing you woke up with a different body

If it were you, how would you know any different? Both people would feel wrong about the body they're now in, why wouldn't you tell the person who got swapped to accept reality or whatever? You say there's a difference but that's only because you know a swap happened, for the person living it the circumstances of how it happened don't matter. It's just sanism, discarding people's mental states as disordered because they don't match your worldview of the ways it's okay for people to think or be.

You can say you know it in your core- you don’t.

I do, it's still my body, I'm the one who decides if it's wrong for me or not.

You want to be stealth, meaning mislead and lie to people for the rest of your life? So… you want to be dishonest with every relationship or friendship you have and yet I assume would want those people to love you for you and be able to trust you as you actively continue to withhold information that could matter deeply to them so you can have the life you want? And that’s morally sound to you? And it wouldn’t bother you that you’d never know if they’d accept you for all of you?

If the alternative is people knowing an awful, terrible truth about me then yeah I'd rather just lie. I have spaces where I'm open about being trans, mostly just to other trans people. It does bother me irl, but I do not think that I am worthy of anyone's love, so I just keep pretending that I am. Tbh I don't really have plans to date someone who isn't trans again, I am only going to date trans people in the future. I don't like being dishonest but I'm an order of magnitude more ashamed of being amab than I am of being stealth.

you’d never know if they’d accept you for all of you?

I kinda assume that no one offline would ever accept me for all of me. That's why I don't let anyone offline see or know all of me.

Even if it’s just the language meant to describe and define women, why take that from them?

How do you own a word, how is there any giving or taking? When people say women in general they still think of you, not me. If I use a different word for myself then I just feel like a freak or "other". I want to be normal, to not have to pretend, to just belong without being some weird outsider. If everyone in my life calls me a woman and I don't tell anyone then what am I taking? You should still be able to describe yourself idk, maybe trans women just need to be quieter

It’s not me who offers no recourse for your pain, it’s life. It’s biology. It’s fact.

Then I'll change life, I'll change biology, I'll change fact, I won't just accept this being the way things are? It's horrible.

If there were alternative treatments you very well could still be alive without transition

Alternative treatments I would never have consented to.

Calling someone mentally ill is meant to try to explain that the issue is with the brain

The issue is with the connection between brain and body. If I were female or didn't have a body my quality of life would be much higher. I don't understand how you can simply presume that the mind, that someone's sense of self, must be wrong and must be changed. When the mental issue is due to something physical then physical changes could alleviate it.

The people who try to “cure” you may actually be able to. Maybe not you specifically, but many dysphoric people.

I think that encouraging this on people erases a great deal of culture from the world though. If gender variance is seen as a disease instead of a state of being then everyone will just be "cis" and I find that super depressing and boring?

Is the doctor wrong for keeping you alive against your will?

Yes. Also dysphoria doesn't make someone insane, it doesn't make us not of sound mind. I generally oppose any violation of patient autonomy even if that would include letting someone die.

what is the issue in waiting until you’ve exhausted all other alternatives

All those alternatives do things I would hate and would kill the person that I am today...there's no comfort in trying to make myself be the good Catholic boy my parents wanted, because I wouldn't even be around to experience the peace of not having dysphoria. Someone else living in my body would be, but we'd be so unalike that I don't consider us the same person.

So why should we treat this one disorder by indulging their symptoms when we wouldn’t do that for anyone else?

A lot of other conditions are "indulged" contextually. Have you ever read "the man who mistook his wife for a hat"? I seem to remember stories of patients with a single, odd compulsion that resisted treatment. The best result for them was just to healthily do that compulsion in a way that didn't negatively affect their life. I.e if someone can only be functional by wearing a certain hat every day then it's easier to just let them wear the hat. It's easier to just let people transition. We will do it anyway, there is a huge DIY scene.

Sex matters and becomes relevant in the day to day for a multitude of reasons.

I'll simply avoid as many situations in which it matters as I can. Like the classic one I hear here is sex on IDs, if having the "wrong" marker will get me killed because of the medical treatment I receive in an accident, then yeah I'd rather die than live through the constant embarrassment that was having an M on my license.

Most people aren’t willing to pretend it doesn’t

So you could support the development of transition care so that more people can pass and you won't even have to think about us?

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My body isn't doing the thinking

But your body IS doing the thinking! All your thoughts are happening inside your brain, which is a part of your body. Your mind doesn't exist independently of your body. And whether you like it or not, your body does influence how you perceive the world. You don't know what it feels like to have a female body anymore than I know what it feels like to be blind. Sure, you could listen to women to get an idea about it, just like I could listen to blind people to understand their experiences; however, you don't have that "lived experience" that you like to talk about. You don't know for instance, what is like worrying about periods (or a lack of them), or whether you may get pregnant, or whether you may be able to access a safe abortion if you ever need it. All that stuff is purely theoretical for you.

And you have yet to tell us why you think you are, or must be, a "woman" besides your own wish to be one. Forget about whether people in your daily life sees you as one or not, why do you started seeing yourself that way before you taked any step to modify your body? I mean, I doubt people in your daily life saw you as "woman" before you tried to physically resemble one, so what did "make" you one back then if no one viewed you that way?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You don't know what it feels like to have a female body anymore than I know what it feels like to be blind

I never claimed to and I don't need to to know how I feel.

Your mind doesn't exist independently of your body

It could, in future. I could transfer my consciousness to a computer or some other substrate, my body is just a shell.

You don't know for instance, what is like worrying about periods (or a lack of them), or whether you may get pregnant, or whether you may be able to access a safe abortion if you ever need it. All that stuff is purely theoretical for you.

None of those things are universal to all women either. And when I was a kid when I thought I would grow up to be a woman naturally, I did worry about those things or the lack of those things. I don't need to have every single experience linked to being female, to be a woman, any more than you or anyone else does. Just because I was raised as a boy and I've had surgery doesn't mean I haven't had experiences in common with other women. I have!

I mean, I doubt people in your daily life saw you as "woman" before you tried to physically resemble one, so what did "make" you one back then if no one viewed you that way?

Of course not, that's why I started changing my body. Knowing I am is not enough if I can never express it. Do you need a reason to call yourself a woman? You can say it's your body, or your experiences, but if those magically changed you'd still be the same you. And then it'd be you knowing in your heart how you're supposed to be and dealing with the pain of having to inch towards that.

I'm not sure why I feel the way I do. When I was little I thought I would grow up to be a woman, I had an imaginary friend who was that imagined future self. Then it became, well maybe all boys wanted to be girls and I'm normal. Then when I found out that's not the case I used to pray to be different and to start my life over. And now I'm here, for a few years now, realizing that no one is going to get me what I need but myself.

I can't describe why any more than I can describe knowing what my favorite color is, or that I'm a nerd who loves cats. Maybe there's a reason buried deep but, it's not very important to me.