Calls for trans elimination

submitted by [deleted] from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I just don’t think females should have to compromise for any males. At most I’ll compromise on pronouns. I’d personally compromise on other things but I don’t feel it’s right for me to compromise on things that other women and even girls don’t want to compromise on. Solidarity and all that.

“I'm not going to say people shouldn't try, just that I would never consider doing it myself, and it should never be forced on people.”

I still think transition should be a last resort. After other things are tried. People who transition have a mental illness- not physical. So all efforts to treat the mental should be exhausted before drastically altering a mentally ill person’s body with synthetic hormones and or surgery.

“Like, I'm also skeptical of its actual efficacy, because many detrans people I've met seem to still be quite dysphoric, despite”

Many mental conditions/illnesses are lifelong- it seems dysphoria is one of those whether you transition or not.

and if a trans person is so worried about validation, gets triggered by certain language/pronouns etc- id argue they do still struggle with dysphoria, even if it’s alleviated. You once told me you plan to be cremated rather than have someone be able to identify your corpse as male… that doesn’t sound like someone who has overcome dysphoria. You’ve made other comments that indicate you still struggle but I don’t have time to list them.

“I mean there's still a conflict here...like if you worked with a trans person and continually misgendered them then they're not going to want to work with you.”

Okay… sounds like a personal problem to me.

“Or like, I'm not going to use the men's room when cis women friends have literally told me I was being silly and dragged me into the women's room.”

And this is why I said I don’t care what you to do your body, I care that you’re undermining my rights and in my spaces. Transition doesn’t make anyone change sex. I can not care what you do with your body and advocate for my spaces to remain for females only at the same time. There’s a conflict for you- not for women.

“My "business" includes existing as a trans woman and it seems clear that you don't want me to be seen as a woman? Idk.”

I don’t care how you’re seen. you’re not a woman. Just literally TW aren’t women. It can’t be proven that they are and can be proven that they are not. If someone else chooses to play along that’s their choice- I should not be forced to or have no say in female spaces or sports etc.

What you’re seen as and what you are are not always the same thing.

“My main problem with it is that it seems, idk, paternalistic. Like "oh I feel so bad for these people, I wish they had some other option". When "these people" are literally telling you that we don't necessarily want another option and want to make our own decisions.”

As I’ve said before- this is a mental health issue. If what you wanted was to take a specific medication or not take medication at all for your illness, if the decision is in vs out patient treatment, if the decision is which therapist you want to work with- under most circumstances I’d agree what you want should be adhered to. But when the decision is intentional hormonal imbalance you intend to maintain for the rest of your life and life changing drastic surgery all for the sake of making you appear to be something you aren’t because you can’t accept that you aren’t - idk if I think someone so desperate for those things that they are suicidal/unable to function is in the best position to make those choices. So if after time and effort is spent on treating dysphoria in other ways and the patient is still unable to cope with the reality of their sex and body- id understand a professional suggesting transition. You’re looking at it from a trans perspective, I’m looking at it from a mental health perspective over all. Dysphoria should be treated like any other mental health issue.

As far as the hrt stuff- I have my own personal opinions on transition, but regardless of those views, I’m not saying that I think transition shouldn’t be done at all, or that doctors should not help and guide patients through it (it should ONLY be done that way imo, if it’s going to be done).

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

I don’t feel it’s right for me to compromise on things that other women and even girls don’t want to compromise on. Solidarity and all that.

So if a single woman or girl doesn't compromise on something, then you won't either? I mean I get solidarity but that seems kinda unrealistic?

I guess I alternate in feeling solidarity more with women or more with trans people but ime most from both groups have been okay with my existence? I've met thousands of people online in lots of different places and I can barely remember any time I've met a woman who was GC in a non-GC space. Idk I just ...trans women aren't the enemy and I wish there was some way of showing that that didn't demand I call myself a man x(

You’ve made other comments that indicate you still struggle but I don’t have time to list them.

I do struggle a lot, it's just boring to talk about it and being emotional on here has gotten me hate in the past so idk if I should. And I'm absolutely still being cremated lol, I don't want a GC archaeologist looking at my remains.

Okay… sounds like a personal problem to me

If someone never called you by your name but called you some awful nickname would that just be your personal problem? Or it'd be harassment

Just literally TW aren’t women. It can’t be proven that they are and can be proven that they are not

I either am or I will be eventually x( it can't be proven unless you accept that biology is always more important for definitions than perception.

What you’re seen as and what you are are not always the same thing.

How do you even know what someone is, if not by looking at them or perceiving them? I don't get it

But when the decision is intentional hormonal imbalance you intend to maintain for the rest of your life

Wait, our hormones aren't unbalanced though, they're just exogenously maintained...like my levels are probably more stable than the average person who's not on hormones because it's a regular dosage and not produced by my body.

all for the sake of making you appear to be something you aren’t because you can’t accept that you aren’t

I can't accept what you want me to be, no. That doesn't make me wrong, why should I trust my body over my mind? I've always felt wrong living in it, to make me "accept" it would be a change so drastic that the person who came out wouldn't be me anymore.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of that people should not have to accept personal injustice even if they don't have a complete way of alleviating it yet. "Coping with reality" is just giving in and giving up..

I have my own personal opinions on transition

Tbh I'm curious !

I’m not saying that I think transition shouldn’t be done at all, or that doctors should not help and guide patients through it

Thank you.

Hey sorry if I'm incoherent rn it's quite late and I lose track of the text on my phone. I'll be better next time

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I think the percentage I most see (whether it’s accurate or not) is a 60/40 split. 60% is just not enough women for me to disregard the 40% who aren’t comfortable. That’s still a lot of uncomfortable women.

GC women hang in gc spaces, and there are plenty of GC women who keep their views to themselves in other spaces. Just because you haven’t interacted with or spotted one doesn’t mean they aren’t there if you’re talking about spaces that have nothing to do with gender/sexuality etc.

I know plenty of women who are gc offline but play along online because they enjoy spaces that happen to make people follow specific sub rules or whatever, for what it’s worth.

Im not asking you to get emotional here, I’m just saying that I don’t know if trans people can always see the lasting symptoms of their dysphoria as clearly as people without it (who know what it is) do. It’s not just you, there are several qt I’ve noticed this with. It’s like with other mental health issues, the person dealing with it doesn’t always see what others notice.

If i worked with a trans person I’d use the name they currently use. I just wouldn’t pretend they were the opposite sex. Is pressuring/demanding someone conform to your beliefs acceptable in the work place? I’m not saying that a trans person at my workplace couldn’t call themselves whatever they want and use whatever language suits them- I’m saying I shouldn’t have to participate.

Biology is factual and provable. Perception varies. Biology is significantly more important because it’s accurate and dependable.

When you are eventually biologically a woman, I will call you one.

However- you’d still be trans. And I’d still be uncomfortable about some things.

You act as if people can’t mistake something they see for something it isn’t. It happens all the time. You reach for sugar and end up with salt. You think the fuit in the bowl is real but it’s artificial. You think the person you’re looking at is white but they’re a poc. You think the person in front of you is a female but they’re actually a male.

I know what someone is without looking at them because I know what a man is and what a woman is. I could possibly be mistaken once in a blue moon. That doesn’t alter the reality of the situation.

Males aren’t supposed to have the hormone levels you have, at least they typically don’t. You’re intentionally giving yourself hormone levels your body isn’t supposed to have. I have to come back and find the right wording for this sorry. I’m tired but can’t sleep.

It’s not what I want you to be. It’s what you just factually, biologically, really are. It has nothing to do with me.

There was never anything wrong with your body. The issue is mental. It’s a mental health issue. That’s my whole point. Lots of people who get treatment for mental health issues change- it means you change, not that you aren’t yourself. You don’t know how you’d change so it’s easy to get dramatic and act like you’d be a whole different person. You’d be you, because that’s all you can ever be.

Wtf is personal injustice?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

just saying that I don’t know if trans people can always see the lasting symptoms of their dysphoria as clearly as people without it

I've had this my whole life and I've been lectured by all kinds of people on how what I feel is apparently wrong, it hasn't ever convinced me at all how to change what I feel.

Is pressuring/demanding someone conform to your beliefs acceptable in the work place?

Pressuring someone to respect their coworkers as human beings and not to like, harass them is acceptable, so

Biology is factual and provable.

Why would I let a stranger ever prove to themselves what my biology is though? It's not like my biology is identical to someone who's not on hormones either. I have breasts, the shape of my body has changed, that alone is sufficient to fool people.

However- you’d still be trans

Great to know being trans is an eternal curse that will forever mark me as being a person unworthy of trust who must be assumed dangerous x(

That doesn’t alter the reality of the situation.

We have nothing else though. I can't snap my fingers and be female yet, all I can do is quiet my troubled mind by pretending. like, idk, I'm not oblivious, I try very hard to live inoffensively, but it apparently is not enough and you don't want people to be able to pretend and keep their real sex private?

You’re intentionally giving yourself hormone levels your body isn’t supposed to have

Haha it's okay I was really tired too. Idk why should I care what my body is "supposed" to have, tho That's not even a small comfort, my "natural" hormones made me feel like a zombie. So yeah I intentionally change them, and there isn't anything wrong with that, it's not the "wrong" levels if I'm way more functional.

Does someone who isn't trans, who has low T, being prescribed a T supplement, is doing that creating an imbalance? If being low T is what their body naturally is, then they shouldn't ever change that, apparently eye roll

It’s what you just factually, biologically, really are

Biology is not destiny, I will either be a woman or I will die trying it's that simple, I refuse to let something as silly as being born wrong decide that for me :(

There was never anything wrong with your body. The issue is mental.

And I trust my mind and how I feel on this. Why shouldn't I? The alternative would be accepting that I'm just wrong and I should be male, but I genuinely don't see the point or value in that. My body isn't doing the thinking, it's just...there, the idea that I should treat it as "proof" of what I "am" requires me to discard 20 years of anguish and stop thinking that what I feel matters. I won't do that--i know how I feel, no matter what my body is. So I will not fix it by fixing how I feel, I will fix it by changing my body.

Wtf is personal injustice?

Living in a state where your body and half the world are against you makes me feel like I'm being karmically punished, and kinda inspires me to keep going despite that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I’m not interested in convincing you that it’s wrong. I know what’s true and what’s not. And it’s clear that whether they can say it or not, most other people do as well. I understand you have a condition, I’m not your therapist, it’s not on me to convince you to accept reality. What I’m saying is, regardless of what you can or can’t accept, no one else should have to adjust for you or pretend for you.

Not pretending you believe the same things as a coworker is not harassment. Trying to force someone to conform to your beliefs however…

Just because you altered your appearance doesn’t mean other people can’t tell you’re trans lmao. Sometimes you don’t get to “let” people know because we… have eyes and ears etc. A lot of trans people overestimate their ability to pass. A lot. And a lot of people who aren’t trans are being kind or just minding their business by not letting you know we know. Sorry if that bursts your bubble.

If you think breasts and fat redistribution conceals maleness- they don’t. They really don’t lol.

Didn’t say it’s a curse, didn’t say it marked you as a bad person- it’s a fact you’d still be trans regardless of what type of person you are

I don’t want my rights or spaces or language to be held hostage to your desire to keep your sex private. No. Absolutely not. Other than those types of issues (and the issue of consent when it comes to dating/sex) idgaf

Trans people don’t start out with a hormone imbalance. They induce one. That’s the difference. If someone’s testosterone levels are not what they naturally are supposed to be they may go on hrt. Trans people don’t go on hrt. They take cross sex hormones to mimic or match the levels in the opposite sex. It’s not the same thing at all and it’s ridiculous to pretend it is.

Sorry to tell you: you’ll die trying. Biology isn’t destiny. It’s reality.

You shouldn’t trust your mind because you have a mental illness that affects your mind and your perception of your body. That’s what I’ve been saying forever. It’s not a you should be male situation. Fact of the matter is- you are male. There is no point or value in that- it just is the truth.

You can’t ever change your body to make you not male, but as I said. I don’t care how you feel or see yourself- the world shouldn’t have to adjust for your feelings or pretend that you’re not a male. Other people shouldn’t have to participate in your sense of self and females shouldn’t lose their rights because of it.

Half the world isn’t against you- they just aren’t willing to pretend they don’t understand biology or reality for you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

no one else should have to adjust for you or pretend for you.

This is literally why I'm stealth though, offline. I don't give people the satisfaction of deciding whether to pretend or not, I prefer them not to know.

A lot of trans people overestimate their ability to pass. A lot. And a lot of people who aren’t trans are being kind or just minding their business by not letting you know we know. Sorry if that bursts your bubble.

Gosh I'm so bored of this narrative. Trans people aren't clueless it's not usually hard to tell if someone is being awkwardly polite. I've lived with people for months before and they assumed I menstruated. I've been in servers I'm not allowed to be in, because my voice is fairly passing. And the number of us that pass will only increase as the average starting age goes down and transition care improves.

I don’t want my rights or spaces or language to be held hostage to your desire to keep your sex private

I'm not holding anything hostage I'm just not going to give up my privacy.

If someone’s testosterone levels are not what they naturally are supposed to be they may go on hrt.

I don't understand why we should at all care about what's natural? Natural doesn't necessarily mean better, or more functional. I'm happier with my hormone levels now than they were naturally and that's all that should matter.

Sorry to tell you: you’ll die trying.

I'm resigned to that, it's better than giving up.

Fact of the matter is- you are male

I don't accept that truth and I will change it in as many ways as become available to me x(

You can’t ever change your body to make you not male

I'll gladly settle for making it not observably male to the casual observer. Whether it is or isn't is kinda secondary.

You shouldn’t trust your mind because you have a mental illness that affects your mind and your perception of your body

Having a gender identity that differs from how I was born isn't a mental illness any more than it would be if it aligned with how I was born. It's not the norm, but neither is being gay or bi or lesbian. It's just part of human variation and only needs to be fixed if the incongruence causes someone distress, which is the whole reason I'm fixing my body.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Im fairly sure some people know or suspect but okay. I’ve acknowledged in the past that if no one knows no one is uncomfortable tho. What I’m saying is that when we do know we should not have to play along with anything we don’t believe in.

Child experimentation doesn’t guarantee passability. Kim Petra, Nikkitutorials, jazz jennings- NONE of them pass for female

As far as anecdotes go- I’ve had a trans person come out to me and my only response was that I already knew. They were shocked. It varies based on the person so if you pass good for you- thst doesn’t mean most trans people do or will.

It also doesn’t mean that passing makes you something you aren’t.

Invading my spaces and robbing me of privacy from males is what I mean by holding women hostage

I don’t care that you have a hormonal imbalance- but that’s not healthy long term and is an issue I have with transition. Every trans person I know is suffering from some level of negative side effects of the synthetic hormones they take. Maybe you’re fine now- you likely won’t be in ten years. The point remains: your hormone levels don’t make you not male or a woman.

As long as you’re resigned to it, good for you I guess

You may not accept that truth but you’ve acknowledged that you can’t make it untrue- you can only alter yourself as much as possible to make it less apparent. My point is still that biology prevails. Even if you successfully pass, you’re still 100% male because that’s how biology works. I’m not saying anything about your feelings, I’m referring to what the reality of the situation is regardless of your feelings.

People are learning more and more what to look for to identify trans people. Maybe that’s shitty but it’s true. There are whole YouTube channels dedicated to teaching people what to look out for. Again- maybe that’s shitty, but it’s true. You won’t be able to hide from everyone all the time. But I respect that you can acknowledge that you can’t change your sex at least. I’m not even saying I don’t understand the desire to be seen as female- I do- I just don’t think it matters to anyone but transwomen. Again, my point is simply that regardless of perception, fact exists and can’t be changed.

Dysphoria is a mental illness. Thinking you are a woman when you are born the sex that can’t be a woman is a word I can’t use here but a mental illness. Gender identity is undefinable bull shit that means nothing to anyone but the people who claim to have one. Being a male who decides that they understand what it means to be a woman, particularly thinking they understand it enough to claim it as a sense of identity is indicative of narcissism- which I believe is classified as a mental health issue. Being a male who thinks it’s okay to tell women what a woman is is misogyny- which may not exactly be a mental illness but is a red flag.

Homo/bisexual people aren’t asking anyone to play pretend for them so it not being the norm doesn’t really carry the same weight or cause the same problems as trans people demanding we pretend a male can be anything other than a boy or man and a female can be anything other than a girl or woman.

As I said, if you feel the need to cosmetically alter your body go for it- I just don’t think it means anything significant to anyone but you.

And for what it’s worth- thinking you’re perfectly normal healthy body needs to be “fixed” by taking hormones for the side effects and cosmetic surgery that have a high rate of complications is indicative of mental illness as well.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Child experimentation doesn’t guarantee passability.

Not yet but it makes it more likely. I'd also say i's pointless to discuss the passability of people known to be trans, you can't make an unbiased judgment. And I never truly saw anyone speculate on Nikkie before she came out, it just feels like more "we can always tell" nonsense. It's not like everyone is perfectly masculine or feminine and that people can't change enough things with hormones or surgery to "get by" in terms of passing.

They were shocked

Yeah if that were me that would make me not want to be friends with you anymore I think, nothing against you, I'm sure you're amazing! Just, I wouldn't be able to think about anything else and it'd be a moment that kept me up at night.

effects of the synthetic hormones they take

It depends on delivery method and specific medications from what I've seen. Like, taking pills is going to tax your liver over time, that's part of why I switched to injections. And after gonadectomy one wouldn't need to take E or T blockers which tend to be the medications with the most side effects? We don't always get the best stuff either, spironolactone is still frequently the only T blocker you can get in the US despite tons of community and anecdotal issues with it.

your hormone levels don’t make you not male or a woman.

Okay? I'm not aiming to have identical levels to a woman, I don't have the biological equipment to necessitate any sort of cycling. The closest I get is the dip before I inject. I'm just generally aiming for whatever levels will be most stable for my mood and give me consistent results in terms of secondary sex characteristics.

Even if you successfully pass, you’re still 100% male because that’s how biology works.

I guess I don't really get how this is some sort of gotcha? Like I just don't care because at that point it would be totally irrelevant to 90% of my life. I'm content to pretend until or if science lets me do more.

You won’t be able to hide from everyone all the time.

I'm thinking of that meme, improvise, adapt, overcome lol.

If it gets really bad and ppl do start clocking me I'll just avoid going out as much as possible. I work remotely right now and interact with my coworkers over video, so I have more control over my presentation. (even before this when I was in person I didn't have any issues though)

Having a decent voice, and to a lesser extent masks, kind of carries me in a lot of situations I think. I mean I never pass to myself in the mirror but I also can't rely on my self-judgment because it's proven to be distorted and unreliable.

you can’t change your sex at least

I'll accept that I can't right now but I'd like to in the future. And...idk if I'm honest I don't really understand what is meant by that statement. Idk if you mean chromosomal sex or genital sex or gonads or some combination of them. Ik you don't mean "apparent sex", even though to me that's a meaningful change too?

Gender identity is undefinable bull shit that means nothing to anyone but the people who claim to have one

No I actually mostly agree with this! Well, I generally care about other people's identity and willing to respect it, but yeah. That just stems from me knowing what it's like to have a strong sense of being something that no one else understands or sees.

Being a male who decides that they understand what it means to be a woman, particularly thinking they understand it enough to claim it as a sense of identity is indicative of narcissism- which I believe is classified as a mental health issue

I don't think I "understand" what it means to be a woman more than anyone else does. I just have always felt that way, it wasn't a conscious decision. Idk why people are so quick to call trans people narcissistic. I don't lack empathy, if you needed help i would try to give it even tho we're super different. I just have a gender identity that's been part of who I am since I was little. I don't understand how that's narcissistic, I'm not intending to tell you who or what you are, I'm just saying what I am

demanding we pretend a male can be anything other than a boy or man

Why not? Why should people be stuck forever the way they were born? I feel like a horrible, evil monster because I'm amab, I second-guess like everything I do because I don't want to be an abuser. To the point where people who care about me tell me "you should stop caring about what T*RFs say or whether someone will judge you for something you couldn't control". All the friends I've confided in on how trapped I feel for being born male, express concern. it broke up my relationship with my last partner. I just don't know what else I should be doing, I can't just accept being this way, so i just want to be seen as something else even if it's not real.

I'm sorry for the emotion I know I'm just a random person on here, begging for the chance to just live my life in the only way I comfortably can. If I have to be a shut-in to avoid hurting women or girls with my presence then I'm already kinda halfway there.

thinking you’re perfectly normal healthy body

I think I just need to give up explaining it to people who aren't dysphoric, at this point. Was...was having a healthy male body supposed to make me happy? Because it just doesn't work like that, we aren't operating under the same definition of health at all. My state of living and body would probably be intolerable to a man, most men like having high testosterone and functional sex organs. But I'm only unhappy with the things I haven't been able to change yet; the ones I have changed have made me a lot happier!

If that's mental illness, then I don't want to be mentally well.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I had no idea Kim Petras is trans. I saw a pic of him online and immediately knew so I google and confirmed. Don’t know any of his music or anything else about him- he is an obvious male and that’s the only reason I know who he is and his appearance is how I found out he was male. Jennings has a clearly masculine face. There have always been rumors about Nikki well before confirmation. We can (usually) tell.

Until they develop surgery to change your hands, neck, shoulders, thighs, knees etc there will always be obvious tells. Sorry.

They were shocked because they thought they passed. Pretty much everyone around them knew. That’s all my point was, that you can think you pass because others don’t let on that you don’t. We can go back and forth about more, but it is what it is.

I mean… if you want to hide, then hide. As I said I don’t care what trans people choose to do. The point is still that you can’t know for sure if nobody knows because most of us don’t care to say anything about it because we don’t gaf. But I’m not talking about just you- I’m talking in general.

As I said, every trans person I know suffers from side effects directly related to the hormones they take. Long term hormones is bound to have repercussions when your body was never meant to have them. I’m glad you’re healthy though

I care about people’s identity when it’s rooted in reality and truth. I don’t care about it when it’s rooted in something they’d never be able to understand.

You can say you just knew you were a woman- that’s the problem. You can’t know something you don’t inhabit. You can cling to the concept because it’s the only alternative, doesn’t mean you know shit about it.

You don’t know you’re a woman. You think you’re one.

People are quick to call trans people narcissistic because many of them are. You don’t see it because it’s possible you are. As I said in a previous comment, people struggling with the issue don’t always see what others see. You don’t get why trans people are seen as narcissists- a lot of others do. The whole fucking lgbt community is pretty much focused on the t now. You demand language and definition changes that would happen solely for your benefit, that women have no say in their spaces and sports because you want access to them, and demand that others pretend that what you want to be seen as is what you are when you’re actually the opposite (not you you- trans community in general you). That’s all pretty narcissistic. It’s not enough for you to have surgery or hormones etc, the whole world has to go along with it.

The identity you’re claiming belongs to another group of people. How can you claim it for yourself if you weren’t a part of that group when you claimed it (and I’d say still aren’t)? That’s a response to the next paragraph but is also narcissistic af

How can you tell me that you are what I am? Seriously how can a male person tell a female person “I’m a woman” and expect to be taken seriously? I’ll never get this.

You feel like an evil monster. In reality you’re just a human who happens to be male. How you feel doesn’t change facts.

Saying a male is a boy or man and a female is girl or woman is not limiting to them to anything but reality. It’s not saying that can’t do whatever they want with their lives, it’s saying that they have a sex. Man and woman, girl and boy- sexed terms. That’s all they are, terms to describe one of the two types of humans.

If i knew you I’d be concerned if you told me you feel trapped as a male. Unfortunately you’d still be a male. It’s just a fact. It’s not anyone fault that that’s the situation. It’s a shitty situation I’m sure, but again- it’s reality.

Your body was healthy though, objectively. At least I presume. Again this is a fact. Unless they have an actual issue or deformity etc, trans people start out with healthy bodies. The issue is mental. I don’t need to have dysphoria to understand what a healthy body is.

It wasn’t supposed to make you happy. It wasn’t supposed to make you anything. Its just your body. And it was, I presume, normally developed until your interfered because of your mental health issue. You only don’t have high testosterone and functional sex organs because you intentionally altered your body. So it doesn’t really mean anything that most men wouldn’t want to live in your body. Your body would have been like most men’s if you hadn’t transitioned. I get you don’t want that- all I was saying that having a healthy body you alter as much as possible in order to appear to be the opposite sex is not indicative of a mentally healthy person. The fact that instead of addressing that you gave the response you gave also points to issues with your mental health. Which is what I’ve been saying this whole time.

What you described is actually not mental illness. Being a male with a typical level of testosterone and functioning genitals because you didn’t take cross sex hormones over an extensive period of time in order to look like the opposite sex and not being disgusted by your male body for no reason other than it being a male body is usually viewed as mentally sound.

Eta- to be clear, I’m not passing judgment on people with mental health issues. I’ve had them before (obviously not dysphoria) and I’ve witnessed people k love deal with them. I don’t use the words to try to be mean or negative, it’s just the only phrasing that feels accurate. Mental health is important and I’m not in any way trying to dismiss, belittle or throw it in anyone’s face. I hope that’s clear to anyone who bothers to read my comments

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Until they develop surgery to change your hands, neck, shoulders, thighs, knees etc there will always be obvious tells.

I was actually to look into one of these at a clinic in Ukraine but then, well, stuff happened. If that's all it takes I will just wait until that's more mainstream.

They were shocked because they thought they passed

Yeah this just makes me want to sh ugh, I need to not go outside for a while

Long term hormones is bound to have repercussions when your body was never meant to have them.

My mind is meant to have them. You believe prescriptively that the only hormone balance someone can be functional on is what's normal or natural. I say that we should let people decide for themselves and pick what's easiest on them, even if there are side effects. Taking estradiol could be lethal for all I care, a few years of relative mental peace is worth it.

I don’t care about it when it’s rooted in something they’d never be able to understand.

What would it take for someone like me to understand? Because I'll do that, alright? Idk

How can you tell me that you are what I am?

It's not logical, it's just something I know in the core of who I am. If you woke up in a different body you'd still be you and you might feel strongly disassociated from that body. That's how it is for us. I'm trapped in a body I hate and the only thing that's ever actually helped, is something that GCers want to take away.

It’s not enough for you to have surgery or hormones etc, the whole world has to go along with it.

That's because hormones and surgery aren't good enough on their own and won't change legal documents. Maybe if everyone passed in every context then all trans people could assimilate into society and be stealth.

Seriously how can a male person tell a female person “I’m a woman”

I'm not necessarily the same as you, we're different people with different sets of experiences. I'm not saying our experiences or bodies are identical but that my sense of self is such that the only way I'm at all comfortable living is if I can be mistaken as female sometimes.

Saying a male is a boy or man and a female is girl or woman is not limiting to them to anything but reality.

You offer us literally no recourse to our pain, then. Like, I'm saying that I cannot, will not live accepting that reality, and your response is to keep trying to get us to do so? Ik transactivists can be awful, but treating all of us based on our sex because you think reality is all that matters is just inhumane.

Your body would have been like most men’s if you hadn’t transitioned.

And I wouldn't have been alive.

not indicative of a mentally healthy person.

Wow thanks this changes my whole worldview and definitely makes me want to detransition...no like actually what is calling mentally ill supposed to actually do? It won't change my situation, it will just open me up to people trying to remove my autonomy and "cure" me.

What you described is actually not mental illness

How do you know that dysphoria is a mental illness and not just a natural reaction to having a brain that rejects one's sexed body? And I'm not saying that there r man brains or woman brains, but that trans people's brains may just be wired differently than non-trans people. What would be sufficient in order for us to have a place in society that isn't just only being seen as our sex?

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My body isn't doing the thinking

But your body IS doing the thinking! All your thoughts are happening inside your brain, which is a part of your body. Your mind doesn't exist independently of your body. And whether you like it or not, your body does influence how you perceive the world. You don't know what it feels like to have a female body anymore than I know what it feels like to be blind. Sure, you could listen to women to get an idea about it, just like I could listen to blind people to understand their experiences; however, you don't have that "lived experience" that you like to talk about. You don't know for instance, what is like worrying about periods (or a lack of them), or whether you may get pregnant, or whether you may be able to access a safe abortion if you ever need it. All that stuff is purely theoretical for you.

And you have yet to tell us why you think you are, or must be, a "woman" besides your own wish to be one. Forget about whether people in your daily life sees you as one or not, why do you started seeing yourself that way before you taked any step to modify your body? I mean, I doubt people in your daily life saw you as "woman" before you tried to physically resemble one, so what did "make" you one back then if no one viewed you that way?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You don't know what it feels like to have a female body anymore than I know what it feels like to be blind

I never claimed to and I don't need to to know how I feel.

Your mind doesn't exist independently of your body

It could, in future. I could transfer my consciousness to a computer or some other substrate, my body is just a shell.

You don't know for instance, what is like worrying about periods (or a lack of them), or whether you may get pregnant, or whether you may be able to access a safe abortion if you ever need it. All that stuff is purely theoretical for you.

None of those things are universal to all women either. And when I was a kid when I thought I would grow up to be a woman naturally, I did worry about those things or the lack of those things. I don't need to have every single experience linked to being female, to be a woman, any more than you or anyone else does. Just because I was raised as a boy and I've had surgery doesn't mean I haven't had experiences in common with other women. I have!

I mean, I doubt people in your daily life saw you as "woman" before you tried to physically resemble one, so what did "make" you one back then if no one viewed you that way?

Of course not, that's why I started changing my body. Knowing I am is not enough if I can never express it. Do you need a reason to call yourself a woman? You can say it's your body, or your experiences, but if those magically changed you'd still be the same you. And then it'd be you knowing in your heart how you're supposed to be and dealing with the pain of having to inch towards that.

I'm not sure why I feel the way I do. When I was little I thought I would grow up to be a woman, I had an imaginary friend who was that imagined future self. Then it became, well maybe all boys wanted to be girls and I'm normal. Then when I found out that's not the case I used to pray to be different and to start my life over. And now I'm here, for a few years now, realizing that no one is going to get me what I need but myself.

I can't describe why any more than I can describe knowing what my favorite color is, or that I'm a nerd who loves cats. Maybe there's a reason buried deep but, it's not very important to me.