Calls for trans elimination

submitted by [deleted] from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

She is advocating for genocide, she is calling to reduce the number of people who transition.

then can you tell us how they survived before the 20th century?

They didn't, not at scale. Some were lucky and some reluctantly lived with a hole in their lives they could never fill. I do not necessarily have their strength. Why should we return to that state though? We have access to hormone therapy now, we should not have to give that up.

Also, don't you think threathening suicide to get what you want sounds manipulative?

Don't you think wanting to infiltrate organizations because you know will never get popular support, which is part of what Helen Joyce called for, sounds manipulative?

Suicide is a cry for help, it's horrible to assume malice from someone who is suffering. It's us telling you "we need this and would rather not live without it" and you saying "well I don't care, you won't manipulate me into caring"

It's your side the one who rejects any kind of compromise.

Your compromises are seemingly always of a form that will lead to trans suffering. Reducing the number of those who transition is not a compromise. Trans people are not going to go away, attempts to change that are not a compromise.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

It’s not genocide. You are not being targeted for death or sterility as a religious, ethnic, national, or racial group.

Genocide is not the same thing as suicides.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Erasing a culture is still genocide, even if there isn't violence involved. If the people of that group can't live freely and their way of life is made illegal, that's genocide.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

It’s not genocide. Genocide is not defined as limitations on a group of people who share a psychosocial phenomenon.

If being transgender is simply an organic state of being for some people, something you yourself claimed, how can it be described as a culture?

Genocide is the explicit extermination of a racial/religious/ethnic/national group via murder or forced sterilisation, or eugenic breeding programs like what was inflicted upon Aboriginal Australians.

The term genocide is simply not applicable here.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Reading up on it and the UN apparently defines it in part as: Article Two of the convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such":

  • Killing members of the group Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
  • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
  • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
  • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

The second one, inflicting on the group conditions calculated to bring about its destruction, is what was being advocated for. If the number of people who transition is forcibly reduced, then that is inflicting a condition that will destroy the group of trans people. Because it's calculated, that many cannot survive if you take that away.

If being transgender is simply an organic state of being for some people, something you yourself claimed, how can it be described as a culture?

Isn't culture an organic state of being too? Trans culture is definitely a thing, there's a community, memes (in the original meaning of the word) that are understood within the group but not so much without, customs, cultural terms and language, art, achievements, etc. The more I think about it now, yeah, the more I think transness has a culture all its own.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

  • Killing members of the group Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
  • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

For many years, trans activists have been openly advocating that the above activities done to women, meaning female human beings, particularly those of a certain age, life experience and POV like Helen Joyce, JK Rowling, the women of Mumsnet and me.

In fact, some trans activists advocate that all "cis" people be put to death by grisly means such as "in a grease fire."

The activities below are exactly what many trans activists advocate be done to others in the "trans community":

  • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
  • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

You yourself have advocated subjecting all children and young people with gender and sex distress to medical treatments that will make it impossible for them to have children.

Trans activists routinely tell children sex and gender distress that their parents are their enemies, and advocate that they be forcibly removed from their families and handed over to adult gender activists who are part of "the LGBTQ+ rainbow community." Adult TRAs like Jeffrey Marsh and Rachel McKinnon/Veronica Ivy routinely use social media to tell kids they are their "new" mothers/parents/aunties now. TRAs who work in schools do everything they can to drive a wedge between children and their parents, telling kids that parents are distrustful and want to harm them. Thousands of anonymous adults seek out gender and sex confused kids online to groom them and turn them against their families, often encouraging them to reject their parents, run away from home, and to get their way by telling their parents that if they don't do exactly as the kids demand, the kids will commit suicide or take legal action accusing the parents of child abuse.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

For many years, trans activists have been openly advocating that the above activities done to women, meaning female human beings, particularly those of a certain age, life experience and POV like Helen Joyce, JK Rowling, the women of Mumsnet and me.

Are these people prominent? Like, I agree with you that that's awful, but I guess I don't see trans people with a platform threatening anyone. I know I don't, transness doesn't mean women won't exist.

Like if contra started saying to hurt women I'd be very disturbed and wouldn't support her. Helen Joyce is a prominent GC figure so she probably counts more than miscellaneous people with little power.

You yourself have advocated subjecting all children and young people with gender and sex distress to medical treatments

"Subjecting"? We choose to have those treatments, it shouldn't be forced on anyone.

Trans activists routinely tell children sex and gender distress that their parents are their enemies, and advocate that they be forcibly removed from their families and handed over to adult gender activists

Honestly this literally is the case half the time. Do you think that dysphoric kids should have to suffer under transphobic parents? That they should have to put up with their parents' religious drivel or them refusing to let their kid transition? That's how families are broken, mine and many others: parents unwilling to consider the autonomy and agency of their (often adult) children. If by removing someone from parental care they can transition or are happier then yes I totally support that. If you refuse to let your kid transition you're a bad parent, who should have had a pet instead of a human being if you needed that much control.

often encouraging them to reject their parents, run away from home, and to get their way by telling their parents that if they don't do exactly as the kids demand, the kids will commit suicide or take legal action accusing the parents of child abuse.

Again if the alternative is being controlled by their GC or religious parents and their dogma then I support them running away.

I know a woman whose parents test her monthly to make sure she doesn't take hormones and she can't leave because they help pay for college. If she did leave then according to most college financial aid rules in the US her parents' income would still be counted even if they contribute nothing. That's how it was for me too, my parents contributed nothing to my education but I had to beg them for tax documents every year or I couldn't keep going to university.

Situations like that make my heart break, honestly, and the parents inflicting that pain on people deserve very little respect. They should not have such control. If I could do it over again I would have never told my parents until I graduated and used them for all they were worth, knowing what I know now.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oy vey. I said:

You yourself have advocated subjecting all children and young people with gender and sex distress to medical treatments that will make it impossible for them to have children.

And you respond with:

"Subjecting"? We choose to have those treatments, it shouldn't be forced on anyone.

Once again, you've switched the subject from

all children and young people with gender and sex distress

To You and other adults like you!

Tell me, how did the individuals formerly known as Jaron Jennings and Xavier Neal choose the treatments they got when they were little boys? Jaron was 2 when his mother decided he was trans; he was 3 when officially given the label by a gender therapist. Xavier was a severely mentally ill and autistic boy age 4. Both were put on blockers when they were pre-teens. Both had their testicles removed and their penises surgically reconfigured when they were minors too young to give legal consent. One was 17; the other 16. How did they choose?

BTW, the Xavier Neal's two younger brothers have now become "trans girls" too - one in early primary school, the other in kindgergarten. Only one of their mother's four children is not trans - and that's probably linked to the fact that he's older, and has a disease that has been causing him to lose his sight, and he is now nearly totally blind.

Which raises an interesting point: not many trans people are blind. This seems to be an identity found almost exclusively amongst people with decent eyesight. Hmm, now why could that be?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

he was 3 when officially given the label by a gender therapist

Maybe the therapist guessed right, who's to say? Is there something wrong with a young kid socially transitioning? Like, I disagree with the model that prescribed blockers, I think people should be able to go on cross-sex hormones as teens but not earlier, and socially transition whenever.

Which raises an interesting point: not many trans people are blind. This seems to be an identity found almost exclusively amongst people with decent eyesight. Hmm, now why could that be?

Omigosh this is literally just conspiratorial confirmation bias lol. Sight is one of the most dysphoric senses but by far not the only one, someone could still have a lot of dysphoria over their voice or based on sensation.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I disagree that anybody is advocating for the elimination of transgender people by making life unbearable.

Desiring the elimination of gender dysphoria in this context means the creation of a treatment that alleviates dysphoria without the need for extreme and invasive procedures like surgery and interfering with healthy puberty.

Like wanting to eliminate cancers. We want nobody to have to endure chemo, not kill cancer patients. We eradicated polio and it didn’t involve murdering polio sufferers, now did it?

A culture is not an organic state of being, no. It’s a living complex system formed by the individuals who make it up. It’s informed by the experiences and knowledge and values of the people in it. Cultures do not simply crop up organically from the ground.

How can an internal identity also be a culture?

More importantly, what religion, race, ethnicity, or nation do transgendered people have in common for genocide to be taking place?

Again, while the phrasing elimination sounds aggressive, the idea is not to destroy transgendered people, but to unequivocally cure dysphoria without requiring the alteration of the body and the complications that often come with it. This is not murder, it is not cruelly leaving people with dysphoria suffering without recourse. What it is is a desire for better and more varied treatment options than a singular invasive treatment option like surgery or drugs that is dishonestly marketed as failsafe and with guarantees bioidentical results.

Instead of a thousand transwomen being genuinely surprised to discover only after surgery, that fistula are common, or transmen finding out that urethral lengthening ends in serious structure up to half of the time, they could be free of dysphoria and not be subjected to unethical and predatory medicalisation. There’s no forcible reduction at all. It’s simply the option of better treatments.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Desiring the elimination of gender dysphoria in this context means the creation of a treatment that alleviates dysphoria without the need for extreme and invasive procedures like surgery and interfering with healthy puberty.

And you don't want us to have a choice in this? That's what's terrifying.

I don't want your "cure", I don't want to be a cis male. The solution can't be to just make it so there won't ever be any trans people again, because they'll all be "cured". There's meaning in my life that wouldn't be there if I weren't trans, that meaning is worth preserving, transition is worth preserving as an option.

A culture is not an organic state of being, no. It’s a living complex system formed by the individuals who make it up. It’s informed by the experiences and knowledge and values of the people in it. Cultures do not simply crop up organically from the ground.

How can an internal identity also be a culture?

Don't you think that trans culture is informed by its members? It's like any culture, it's part of your identity, idk if I'm missing something but I don't see the issue there?

More importantly, what religion, race, ethnicity, or nation do transgendered people have in common for genocide to be taking place?

Transness is a belief system then.

but to unequivocally cure dysphoria without requiring the alteration of the body and the complications that often come with it. This is not murder, it is not cruelly leaving people with dysphoria suffering without recourse.

It is erasing who we are to make us just like everyone else, without giving us a choice in who we want to be.

They could be free of dysphoria and not be subjected to unethical and predatory medicalisation. There’s no forcible reduction at all. It’s simply the option of better treatments

"Better" is completely subjective. Being cured of dysphoria and being cis does not sound better than being on hormones my whole life at all.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Where are you getting the idea that there will be no choice available?

In what way is a better option for some the same thing as killing?

Perhaps a cure for dysphoria is not for you, but there are many who are so tortured by it that they would take a cure in a heartbeat. This doesn’t make them bad people.

A cure for dysphoria would only prevent someone from being who they want to be if who they want to be is merely defined as trans. A person can still be a parent, or an engineer, or a comedian, or charitable, funny, kind, hardworking, loyal, generous, etc etc without the condition of dysphoria being present.

It’s unreasonable to say that because you would reject a cure, a cure is evil.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Where are you getting the idea that there will be no choice available?

I mean Helen was saying she wants to reduce the number of people who transition, idk that doesn't sound willing to me, it sounds like, because she described us all as being a problem, that we wouldn't get a say in that..

In what way is a better option for some the same thing as killing?

If you force it on people then there won't be any trans people anymore and our culture and group would be erased.

Perhaps a cure for dysphoria is not for you, but there are many who are so tortured by it that they would take a cure in a heartbeat

I honestly forget the name of it, but I remember a survey that was done asking trans people whether they would accept a cure for dysphoria. Usually those who hadn't been transitioning for very long would say yes, and those who had would say no.

So that inclines me to think that, having the option to transition there, and not demonizing the option, is necessary because someone may not know what they want in the future. If they only base their decision on "cure" as a default, but they could have been happy either way, then that's one trans person erased.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Multiple people have already told you that you’re misinterpreting Helen.

So a cure shouldn’t be an option because some people won’t take it?

I cannot believe that transitioning leads to the everlasting perfect happiness promised by those who sell the means of transitioning. Not when every online trans community is filled with people talking at length about their misery and frustration and botched surgery.

An offer is not a forced hand. Transition is not the only possible option for happiness for other people despite what you feel. Your feelings are yours, not a universal transgender experience.

If a trans person electing to cure their dysphoria is being eliminated by the enemy, so is suicide by transgendered people. This would mean the large scale elimination is being enacted by transgendered people.