Calls for trans elimination

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[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

Talk about misrepresenting what Helen Joyce said. For goodnes sake, she is not advocating for genocide and you know it. If you are going to claim trans identified people will kill themselves without exogenous hormones and cosmetic surgeries, then can you tell us how they survived before the 20th century? Also, don't you think threathening suicide to get what you want sounds manipulative?

I just need to know that it's not this bad, that there is still room for us all to compromise and sing together one day.

It's your side the one who rejects any kind of compromise.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

She is advocating for genocide, she is calling to reduce the number of people who transition.

then can you tell us how they survived before the 20th century?

They didn't, not at scale. Some were lucky and some reluctantly lived with a hole in their lives they could never fill. I do not necessarily have their strength. Why should we return to that state though? We have access to hormone therapy now, we should not have to give that up.

Also, don't you think threathening suicide to get what you want sounds manipulative?

Don't you think wanting to infiltrate organizations because you know will never get popular support, which is part of what Helen Joyce called for, sounds manipulative?

Suicide is a cry for help, it's horrible to assume malice from someone who is suffering. It's us telling you "we need this and would rather not live without it" and you saying "well I don't care, you won't manipulate me into caring"

It's your side the one who rejects any kind of compromise.

Your compromises are seemingly always of a form that will lead to trans suffering. Reducing the number of those who transition is not a compromise. Trans people are not going to go away, attempts to change that are not a compromise.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

It’s not genocide. You are not being targeted for death or sterility as a religious, ethnic, national, or racial group.

Genocide is not the same thing as suicides.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Erasing a culture is still genocide, even if there isn't violence involved. If the people of that group can't live freely and their way of life is made illegal, that's genocide.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

It’s not genocide. Genocide is not defined as limitations on a group of people who share a psychosocial phenomenon.

If being transgender is simply an organic state of being for some people, something you yourself claimed, how can it be described as a culture?

Genocide is the explicit extermination of a racial/religious/ethnic/national group via murder or forced sterilisation, or eugenic breeding programs like what was inflicted upon Aboriginal Australians.

The term genocide is simply not applicable here.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Reading up on it and the UN apparently defines it in part as: Article Two of the convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such":

  • Killing members of the group Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
  • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
  • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
  • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

The second one, inflicting on the group conditions calculated to bring about its destruction, is what was being advocated for. If the number of people who transition is forcibly reduced, then that is inflicting a condition that will destroy the group of trans people. Because it's calculated, that many cannot survive if you take that away.

If being transgender is simply an organic state of being for some people, something you yourself claimed, how can it be described as a culture?

Isn't culture an organic state of being too? Trans culture is definitely a thing, there's a community, memes (in the original meaning of the word) that are understood within the group but not so much without, customs, cultural terms and language, art, achievements, etc. The more I think about it now, yeah, the more I think transness has a culture all its own.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

  • Killing members of the group Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
  • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

For many years, trans activists have been openly advocating that the above activities done to women, meaning female human beings, particularly those of a certain age, life experience and POV like Helen Joyce, JK Rowling, the women of Mumsnet and me.

In fact, some trans activists advocate that all "cis" people be put to death by grisly means such as "in a grease fire."

The activities below are exactly what many trans activists advocate be done to others in the "trans community":

  • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
  • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

You yourself have advocated subjecting all children and young people with gender and sex distress to medical treatments that will make it impossible for them to have children.

Trans activists routinely tell children sex and gender distress that their parents are their enemies, and advocate that they be forcibly removed from their families and handed over to adult gender activists who are part of "the LGBTQ+ rainbow community." Adult TRAs like Jeffrey Marsh and Rachel McKinnon/Veronica Ivy routinely use social media to tell kids they are their "new" mothers/parents/aunties now. TRAs who work in schools do everything they can to drive a wedge between children and their parents, telling kids that parents are distrustful and want to harm them. Thousands of anonymous adults seek out gender and sex confused kids online to groom them and turn them against their families, often encouraging them to reject their parents, run away from home, and to get their way by telling their parents that if they don't do exactly as the kids demand, the kids will commit suicide or take legal action accusing the parents of child abuse.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

For many years, trans activists have been openly advocating that the above activities done to women, meaning female human beings, particularly those of a certain age, life experience and POV like Helen Joyce, JK Rowling, the women of Mumsnet and me.

Are these people prominent? Like, I agree with you that that's awful, but I guess I don't see trans people with a platform threatening anyone. I know I don't, transness doesn't mean women won't exist.

Like if contra started saying to hurt women I'd be very disturbed and wouldn't support her. Helen Joyce is a prominent GC figure so she probably counts more than miscellaneous people with little power.

You yourself have advocated subjecting all children and young people with gender and sex distress to medical treatments

"Subjecting"? We choose to have those treatments, it shouldn't be forced on anyone.

Trans activists routinely tell children sex and gender distress that their parents are their enemies, and advocate that they be forcibly removed from their families and handed over to adult gender activists

Honestly this literally is the case half the time. Do you think that dysphoric kids should have to suffer under transphobic parents? That they should have to put up with their parents' religious drivel or them refusing to let their kid transition? That's how families are broken, mine and many others: parents unwilling to consider the autonomy and agency of their (often adult) children. If by removing someone from parental care they can transition or are happier then yes I totally support that. If you refuse to let your kid transition you're a bad parent, who should have had a pet instead of a human being if you needed that much control.

often encouraging them to reject their parents, run away from home, and to get their way by telling their parents that if they don't do exactly as the kids demand, the kids will commit suicide or take legal action accusing the parents of child abuse.

Again if the alternative is being controlled by their GC or religious parents and their dogma then I support them running away.

I know a woman whose parents test her monthly to make sure she doesn't take hormones and she can't leave because they help pay for college. If she did leave then according to most college financial aid rules in the US her parents' income would still be counted even if they contribute nothing. That's how it was for me too, my parents contributed nothing to my education but I had to beg them for tax documents every year or I couldn't keep going to university.

Situations like that make my heart break, honestly, and the parents inflicting that pain on people deserve very little respect. They should not have such control. If I could do it over again I would have never told my parents until I graduated and used them for all they were worth, knowing what I know now.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oy vey. I said:

You yourself have advocated subjecting all children and young people with gender and sex distress to medical treatments that will make it impossible for them to have children.

And you respond with:

"Subjecting"? We choose to have those treatments, it shouldn't be forced on anyone.

Once again, you've switched the subject from

all children and young people with gender and sex distress

To You and other adults like you!

Tell me, how did the individuals formerly known as Jaron Jennings and Xavier Neal choose the treatments they got when they were little boys? Jaron was 2 when his mother decided he was trans; he was 3 when officially given the label by a gender therapist. Xavier was a severely mentally ill and autistic boy age 4. Both were put on blockers when they were pre-teens. Both had their testicles removed and their penises surgically reconfigured when they were minors too young to give legal consent. One was 17; the other 16. How did they choose?

BTW, the Xavier Neal's two younger brothers have now become "trans girls" too - one in early primary school, the other in kindgergarten. Only one of their mother's four children is not trans - and that's probably linked to the fact that he's older, and has a disease that has been causing him to lose his sight, and he is now nearly totally blind.

Which raises an interesting point: not many trans people are blind. This seems to be an identity found almost exclusively amongst people with decent eyesight. Hmm, now why could that be?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

he was 3 when officially given the label by a gender therapist

Maybe the therapist guessed right, who's to say? Is there something wrong with a young kid socially transitioning? Like, I disagree with the model that prescribed blockers, I think people should be able to go on cross-sex hormones as teens but not earlier, and socially transition whenever.

Which raises an interesting point: not many trans people are blind. This seems to be an identity found almost exclusively amongst people with decent eyesight. Hmm, now why could that be?

Omigosh this is literally just conspiratorial confirmation bias lol. Sight is one of the most dysphoric senses but by far not the only one, someone could still have a lot of dysphoria over their voice or based on sensation.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I disagree that anybody is advocating for the elimination of transgender people by making life unbearable.

Desiring the elimination of gender dysphoria in this context means the creation of a treatment that alleviates dysphoria without the need for extreme and invasive procedures like surgery and interfering with healthy puberty.

Like wanting to eliminate cancers. We want nobody to have to endure chemo, not kill cancer patients. We eradicated polio and it didn’t involve murdering polio sufferers, now did it?

A culture is not an organic state of being, no. It’s a living complex system formed by the individuals who make it up. It’s informed by the experiences and knowledge and values of the people in it. Cultures do not simply crop up organically from the ground.

How can an internal identity also be a culture?

More importantly, what religion, race, ethnicity, or nation do transgendered people have in common for genocide to be taking place?

Again, while the phrasing elimination sounds aggressive, the idea is not to destroy transgendered people, but to unequivocally cure dysphoria without requiring the alteration of the body and the complications that often come with it. This is not murder, it is not cruelly leaving people with dysphoria suffering without recourse. What it is is a desire for better and more varied treatment options than a singular invasive treatment option like surgery or drugs that is dishonestly marketed as failsafe and with guarantees bioidentical results.

Instead of a thousand transwomen being genuinely surprised to discover only after surgery, that fistula are common, or transmen finding out that urethral lengthening ends in serious structure up to half of the time, they could be free of dysphoria and not be subjected to unethical and predatory medicalisation. There’s no forcible reduction at all. It’s simply the option of better treatments.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Desiring the elimination of gender dysphoria in this context means the creation of a treatment that alleviates dysphoria without the need for extreme and invasive procedures like surgery and interfering with healthy puberty.

And you don't want us to have a choice in this? That's what's terrifying.

I don't want your "cure", I don't want to be a cis male. The solution can't be to just make it so there won't ever be any trans people again, because they'll all be "cured". There's meaning in my life that wouldn't be there if I weren't trans, that meaning is worth preserving, transition is worth preserving as an option.

A culture is not an organic state of being, no. It’s a living complex system formed by the individuals who make it up. It’s informed by the experiences and knowledge and values of the people in it. Cultures do not simply crop up organically from the ground.

How can an internal identity also be a culture?

Don't you think that trans culture is informed by its members? It's like any culture, it's part of your identity, idk if I'm missing something but I don't see the issue there?

More importantly, what religion, race, ethnicity, or nation do transgendered people have in common for genocide to be taking place?

Transness is a belief system then.

but to unequivocally cure dysphoria without requiring the alteration of the body and the complications that often come with it. This is not murder, it is not cruelly leaving people with dysphoria suffering without recourse.

It is erasing who we are to make us just like everyone else, without giving us a choice in who we want to be.

They could be free of dysphoria and not be subjected to unethical and predatory medicalisation. There’s no forcible reduction at all. It’s simply the option of better treatments

"Better" is completely subjective. Being cured of dysphoria and being cis does not sound better than being on hormones my whole life at all.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Where are you getting the idea that there will be no choice available?

In what way is a better option for some the same thing as killing?

Perhaps a cure for dysphoria is not for you, but there are many who are so tortured by it that they would take a cure in a heartbeat. This doesn’t make them bad people.

A cure for dysphoria would only prevent someone from being who they want to be if who they want to be is merely defined as trans. A person can still be a parent, or an engineer, or a comedian, or charitable, funny, kind, hardworking, loyal, generous, etc etc without the condition of dysphoria being present.

It’s unreasonable to say that because you would reject a cure, a cure is evil.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Where are you getting the idea that there will be no choice available?

I mean Helen was saying she wants to reduce the number of people who transition, idk that doesn't sound willing to me, it sounds like, because she described us all as being a problem, that we wouldn't get a say in that..

In what way is a better option for some the same thing as killing?

If you force it on people then there won't be any trans people anymore and our culture and group would be erased.

Perhaps a cure for dysphoria is not for you, but there are many who are so tortured by it that they would take a cure in a heartbeat

I honestly forget the name of it, but I remember a survey that was done asking trans people whether they would accept a cure for dysphoria. Usually those who hadn't been transitioning for very long would say yes, and those who had would say no.

So that inclines me to think that, having the option to transition there, and not demonizing the option, is necessary because someone may not know what they want in the future. If they only base their decision on "cure" as a default, but they could have been happy either way, then that's one trans person erased.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

She is advocating for genocide, she is calling to reduce the number of people who transition.

If a resercher working in a cure for AIDS says in a interview she wants to reduce the number of cases, would it be reasonable to assume she is advocating for killing people with AIDS?

They didn't, not at scale. Some were lucky and some reluctantly lived with a hole in their lives they could never fill. I do not necessarily have their strength. Why should we return to that state though? We have access to hormone therapy now, we should not have to give that up.

Source?

Don't you think wanting to infiltrate organizations because you know will never get popular support, which is part of what Helen Joyce called for, sounds manipulative?

When has she said that? Infiltrating implies secrececy, which is more in like with what trans activists do.

Suicide is a cry for help, it's horrible to assume malice from someone who is suffering. It's us telling you "we need this and would rather not live without it" and you saying "well I don't care, you won't manipulate me into caring"

Ok, let's try the following example: a woman is tired of her abusive boyfriend and decides to leave. However upon learning this the boyfriend tells her that if she leaves he will kill himself. Does this sound to you like a cry for help or manipulation to you?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

AIDS is a condition that causes suffering, being trans is not...

Source?

Read accounts of trans women priests in antiquity, or various trans men who unequivocally described themselves as men or lived their entire lives in hiding. Hormone therapy and transition has been around for nearly a hundred years. It's possible that without it trans people would have learned to cope and been invisible, but you cannot put the genie back into the bottle. It's inhumane.

When has she said that?

If you watch the video, she says that they cannot rely on persuading everyone, they need to "get through to the decision makers", aka skipping popular support.

Does this sound to you like a cry for help or manipulation to you?

Obviously manipulating because he's abusing her??

Are you implying that all trans people, by our very existence, are abusing women?

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

AIDS is a condition that causes suffering, being trans is not...

This contradicts you following claim:

Read accounts of trans women priests in antiquity, or various trans men who unequivocally described themselves as men or lived their entire lives in hiding. Hormone therapy and transition has been around for nearly a hundred years. It's possible that without it trans people would have learned to cope and been invisible, but you cannot put the genie back into the bottle. It's inhumane.

Please provide links or be more specific.

If you watch the video, she says that they cannot rely on persuading everyone, they need to "get through to the decision makers", aka skipping popular support.

Ah, that part. And how is that any worse trans activists lobbyng lawmakers?

Obviously manipulating because he's abusing her??

Are you implying that all trans people, by our very existence, are abusing women?

What?! I said threathening suicide sounds manipulative. You're are the one interpreting it as all trans identified people are abusing women just by existing.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Please provide links or be more specific.

You will just call it cherry-picking anyway. Just start here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history

Most women in the UK support trans rights: https://www.them.us/story/a-majority-of-uk-cisgender-women-support-trans-rights-survey-reveals

What?! I said threathening suicide sounds manipulative

It depends on the context, trans people saying we can't live without transition is not a "threat", it wouldn't be manipulative if it were about a diabetic needing insulin or needing air or water, so it's not here either.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Suicide is a cry for help,

No it's not. Please don't say that. Yes, some people who make suicide attempts and threats are issuing a cry for help. But many people who consider, attempt and actually commit suicide simply want to end their lives, and they are, well, dead serious about it. They aren't trying to get other people's attention, and they don't want help. They want out.

Not everyone thinks and operates the way you do. Not everything that everyone else does is a way of trying to get other people to pay attention to them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Do you not think that in wanting to end their lives, they are in need of help? A hug, or support?

When I contemplated suicide shortly before DIYing hormones, I didn't tell anyone irl. I'd just go back to my dorm every day and think about how I could disappear forever. I got what I needed, but many don't, sadly.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Whether people who are suicidal are in need of help is an entirely different issue to whether some people use suicide as a way to get attention and help. I was disagreeing with your claim that suicide is a cry for help.

I think that many people who are seriously suicidal do not want help, and some are beyond help. But in the case of those who can be helped, a hug won't do it - nor sex hormones, either.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Hormones worked for me : P

I don't think anyone is beyond help, I guess, we shouldn't stop trying to save people

I recognize that some who are suicidal don't want help but I feel like it's dangerous to assume that, we should still try to help even if it's pointless

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Hormones worked for me : P

You are one person, though. Your experience is not representative of the experience of the rest of the human race, FFS. Your personal experience is especially not representative of those who are female, with female anatomy and physiology, or those who have experienced severe clinical depression with genuine suicidal ideation in a seriously life-limiting/disabling way for a sustained length of time.

As one of the tens of millions of women summarily yanked off and then denied exogenous estrogen for menopause because of the findings of the Women's Health Initiative Study released in 2002 - as well as one of the many people who's had to make do and muddle through despite experiencing severe treatment-resistant clinical depression for a lot longer than you've been alive - I find the way you talk of suicide and the sex hormone estradiol to be very flip, superficial, callow, massively entitled and very insensitive. Indeed, it comes off to me as kinda callous. I know that's not what you intend, but since you are so hyper-focused on, and worried about, how others perceive you, I think it's worth mentioning.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

As one of the tens of millions of women summarily yanked off and then denied exogenous estrogen for menopause because of the findings of the Women's Health Initiative Study Results study released in 2002

That sounds awful, I'm so sorry :(

Yeah I don't blame you, hormone imbalance always contributes to my depression as well, the times I've been missing medication weren't pleasant. I definitely think you should have access to that if you want it.

I know that's not what you intend, but since you are so hyper-focused on and worried about how others perceive you, I think it's worth mentioning.

I used to worry about it a ton with people online but now I would rather be honest than be afraid to say what I'm thinking, I guess. But I'm not like, an unfeeling person or anything, I don't wish badly on anyone here.

And idk how I could "represent" cis women or female anatomy and physiology with my thoughts, because I'm not a cis woman.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I appreciate you engaging. You have put up with a lot of opposition here in the past couple of days, and you have been a really good sport about it. You could have just packed off in a huff long ago.

Since I've given you negative feedback, here's a bit of positive: you're showing a considerable amount of "good faith" and resilience. I find that very impressive and admirable. I tip my hat to you.

I really do wish you well. Please if you go ahead with your surgeries, let people here know. Take care.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks! Idk I don't let myself be angry, especially not over this. Hating anyone just eats at me so I try to speak in good faith, I guess.

Also wait, why would I tell people here when I get surgery? Like, do you mean based on my results?