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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (47 children)

I said female persons whose health has been permanently damaged by regular administration of exogenous testosterone/androgens for the purpose of masculinizing them during their tweens, teens and 20s have faced, and do face, a horrible fate.

You realize there are many precautions that can be taken that can help transmasc people with this? A lot of trans guys I know take topical estradiol to prevent vaginal atrophy, it's unfortunate but helps, and have also had hysterectomies to head off potential issues there as well.

pelvic organ prolapse and early-onset dementia. As adults, female persons on long-term exogenous T for masculinization have double the risk of heart attacks and CV disease as ordinary male adults do.

I don't think any of this is worth not transitioning, personally. It's up to them and they should be aware, but we will figure out ways to deal with these issues. There are other risky actions people take that increase their CV risk, like eating badly, but we don't stop people from eating how they want, obviously.

Why are adult trans activists like you so intent on issuing diktats saying other people's minor children should be given powerful prescription drugs and artificial hormones that will impede their natural development and impair their sexual function?

Because if they're trans it's their right to take them, it's that simple. And estradiol for trans women is bioidentical now in the vast majority of cases. It's exogenously introduced, but it's the exact same hormone as is produced naturally.

large numbers of young children they have never met, never will meet, have nothing to do with and know jack shit about, are being subjected to radical experimental medical interventions to stop them from going through puberty.

If even one kid is like me and hates her body less because she was able to transition younger and not have horrible parents then it will have been worth it.

All of the people I mentioned have the ears of the people high up in medicine, psychotherapy, politics, government, "LGBTQ" lobbying, publishing and the mainstream media, social media, the insurance industry, etc who make policy and decide what treatments are appropriate for children.

Trans people finally having a say for ourselves and helping trans kids, and that's somehow problematic to you. Would you rather trans people have no voice and cis people decide for us? No lol

Over the years, Bowers has also been an outspoken, leading advocate of subjecting male children to surgical castration and penile reconfiguration whilst they are still minors.

Okay? I can see how that's logical, it would be much easier to recover from SRS with parental support.

All of whom also have had the chance to develop normal male reproductive capacity and to experience the enormous and exquisite pleasures that come from having mature male sexual function, male libido, male sexual pleasure, and male orgasms.

Okay what actually is this? Why write this? I hated anything sexual before I transitioned and I still have intimacy issues because I'm so uncomfortable with my body. There is no "exquisite" pleasure in being male nor does that at all motivate me to have others have to suffer the way I did/do. I would have done anything to avoid that grossness.

gender identity ideology say it's a good idea to follow the advice of the kinds of adult males I have mentioned in determining how best to treat young boys and girls who are distressed over sex and gender issue.

Literally the only advice you have to follow is to treat ppl with dysphoria and give them transition care.

Again, why is it so important to you and other adults like you to insure that other people's minor children get robbed of the chance to grow up physically healthy with fully developed brains and bodies, and with the capacity to enjoy full sexual function?

People do not necessarily need or desire "full sexual function". I didn't. Why are you so intent on making trans kids suffer so that people can grow up wanting sex? Ofc hormones alter people's bodies and minds but that is not a negative thing, it's someone's choice.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

People do not necessarily need or desire "full sexual function". I didn't. Why are you so intent on making trans kids suffer so that people can grow up wanting sex? Ofc hormones alter people's bodies and minds but that is not a negative thing, it's someone's choice.

Yikes. This is straight up the kind of thinking that Money and Mengele engaged in. It's the kind of thinking used in the past to justify the sterilization and lobotomization of people with physical and mental disabilities and other traits deemed "undesirable" in the eyes of eugenists. It's the kind of thinking that's used to justify FGM and forced hysterectomies.

What you want to see done across the board to minors too young to have agency constitute profound violations of their fundamental human rights.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

Lobotomies and other barbaric surgeries were and are performed on people without their consent. Neither HRT nor gender-affirming surgery is so drastic, and importantly, it is desired by the patient.

Just because someone is a child, doesn't mean they have no medical agency. Kids can't decide everything but they should get a say in their own healthcare.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (44 children)

I forgot to ask this earlier: If you really believe that most trans adults agree with you that

People do not necessarily need or desire "full sexual function"

And you truly are convinced that the children subjected to "gender affirming" medical interventions that will leave without sexual function will grow up to have no regrets about it -

Then how do you account for the fact that thousands of adults in countries such as Sweden, Germany and Japan have sued and obtained compensation for being required to give up their capacity to reproduce as part of their own gender transitions that they underwent as adults?

How do you account for the fact that the one thing most "trans men" get in the news for is for having babies? If sexual function wasn't important to them, how come so many trans men are hell-bent on reproducing? How do you account for the fact that a great number of young "trans women" today say they want biological children too, and many prominent ones like Gigi Gorgeous and Blaire White have openly expressed regret and grief that they did not bank sperm before they started taking T suppressants and messing with their endocrine systems?

How do you respond to the fact that many people who have no interest in having children ever when they are in their teens and 20s find that in their 30s they feel totally differently?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (43 children)

Then how do you account for the fact that thousands of adults in countries such as Sweden, Germany and Japan have sued and obtained compensation for being required to give up their capacity to reproduce as part of their own gender transitions that they underwent as adults?

Isn't that because those countries used to require sterilization to transition legally? Yeah that's awful, and I wouldn't even say they had free choice in that. But that's different than freely choosing transition knowing it will lead to loss of fertility. They made that choice, it is not a doctor's job to predict with certainty where your mind will be in the far future. It's the same logic that doctors use to misogynistically deny tubal ligation or hysterectomies to young women. No other condition is treated this way as far as I know, nowhere else do we withhold treatment just because of the mere possibility of regret.

How do you respond to the fact that many people who have no interest in having children ever when they are in their teens and 20s find that in their 30s they feel totally differently?

People can change their mind, so what? That can literally happen with anything, they should take responsibility for their choices. If they chose not to bank sperm years ago when they had the option then that's no one's fault but their own. All dysphoric people deserve support in the present, whether they've transitioned or detransitioned or anything in between. But acting like woe is you because you didn't foresee the potential consequences of your actions doesn't entitle you to control others' choices.

Yeah, it's possible that in 10 years I'll regret getting an orchiectomy or transitioning. I doubt it, because the idea of having biological kids makes me want to vomit, but yeah it's at least vaguely possible. But if that happens I'll handle it then, and if I have regret it won't be any different than like, deciding not to go to grad school, or whether or not to stay together with a partner. All decisions that greatly affect someone's life trajectory and experience.

I don't see you rushing to try and prevent people from making literally any other kind of choice they might regret later, so you shouldn't for people transitioning either.

Also, even though I think I'll be too old by the time it's ready, young trans women may be able to receive a womb transplant in the future which could also eliminate the need to bank sperm at all

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But that's different than freely choosing transition knowing it will lead to loss of fertility. They made that choice, it is not a doctor's job to predict with certainty where your mind will be in the far future.

How can someone "freely choose" to lose their own fertility when they are still a child, tween or teenager?

It's the same logic that doctors use to misogynistically deny tubal ligation or hysterectomies to young women. No other condition is treated this way as far as I know, nowhere else do we withhold treatment just because of the mere possibility of regret.

But there are many reasons why doctors are cautious in these situations; it's not just a matter of misogyny. Fact is, lots of women who don't want kids in their teens and 20s decide differently when they are older. I personally didn't want children until I was 33. Also, hysterectomy is a major operation with myriad lifelong impacts on women's health.

You are totally wrong about no other conditions being approached with so much caution. Most medical practitioners and health insurance companies require patients to try all the treatments that are the least radical, least invasive, least costly, with the lowest rates of negative effects first - and only if they have ALL failed to bring about marked improvement is the patient allowed to try more radical, invasive and risky approaches. Even in cases where life is at risk, such as cancers, doctors advise and use caution when it comes to treatments that can leave a young person infertile. Even when people are in the end stages of terminal illness, caution is exercised about using drugs and other interventions that are unproven and have many negative "side effects."

People can change their mind, so what? That can literally happen with anything, they should take responsibility for their choices. If they chose not to bank sperm years ago when they had the option then that's no one's fault but their own.

But what about all the people who will never get the option to bank sperm or retrieve and freeze eggs because their parents and doctors decided to use drugs to halt their development before they reach the age when they are able to make sperm - or to make mature ova?

Are you really so cruel that you would tell Jazz Jennings or Trinity Neal, "So what? You made your choices. It's no fault but your own." Do you really think they should take responsibility for what was done to them when they were 11 and 12? Jazz and Trinity were were forced into adopting a trans identity as toddlers and put on "blockers" at Tanner Stage 2. Do you seriously think they freely chose what was done to them? BTW, now that Trinity's two younger male siblings have also been decreed trans by their mom, they're probably going to be put on "blockers" as soon as they start puberty - and mom will probably arrange for them to have their testicles removed and penises reconfigured at 16, the age when she had it done to Trinity. You really would tell these people when they grow up and have misgivings to suck it up because in your opinion, having healthy genitals and being able to enjoy sex not only are unimportant, but they make YOU personally uncomfortable - and as YOU see it, being able to reproduce is not only over-rated, the very thought of having children makes YOU "want to vomit." Then once the knife is in, are you going to twist it further by pronouncing that what happened to them as children was their own their fault anyways?

I don't see you rushing to try and prevent people from making literally any other kind of choice they might regret later, so you shouldn't for people transitioning either.

You have no idea what I do in my life, LOL. But as someone who has raised children, and been in education, I definitely have shared information and offered the benefit of my experience (and wisdom) in hopes that it would help stop some others from doing things to their bodies that they might regret later. As a parent, I also had to say "no" when an adolescent child who needed surgery for a health problem was in such a rush to get the health problem fixed right away that he wanted to go with the first surgeon we consulted who could do it - even though that surgeon was a) not well qualified; and b) would have used a radical surgical approach that was experimental, without an evidence base, and likely would have led to diminished sexual function. I had to put my foot down and tell my child that when you get medical care, you get second opinions - and when you get surgery you go to the very best surgeon you can find, even if this means waiting a while, extra expense and the inconvenience of traveling. In my own case, when I had a serious problem with chronic gynecological/pelvic pain, I traveled 3,000 miles to get surgery from the best specialist in female pelvic pain and endometriosis I thought there was - David Redwine.

As a parent, I have also taken action more times that I can count to prevent my children - and their friends when in my care - from making many other kinds of choices I thought they might regret later on. Such as putting things in their mouth they could choke on, eating all their Halloween candy in one sitting, snorting soda pop up their noses, not doing their homework or leaving their homework to the last minute, not studying for exams, refusing to brush their teeth, getting behind the wheel of a car when drunk or stoned, watching horror movies when high on hallucinogens, joining the military, running off and eloping, not using contraception when engaging in heterosex, being cavalier about STDs, trying out heroin to see what it's like to shoot up, agreeing to cockamamie plans and schemes their friends cooked up, blowing all their hard-earned wages on passing pleasures and cheap thrills, getting a lot of visible tattoos/ink sleeves, investing money in dodgy ventures, getting involved romantically with people they only met online who might have been catfishers, and engaging in activities things that can impair male fertility.

young trans women may be able to receive a womb transplant in the future which could also eliminate the need to bank sperm at all

Huh? Even if someone did somehow implant a uterus in a human male body, and the person wanted to try to use that uterus to gestate a child, pregnancy still would require the merging of male and female gametes. So if such a person didn't bank their sperm, they'd need to get both eggs AND sperm from other people. I don't get why someone such as yourself would want to become pregnant with a child who is not biologically related to them. Were you under the impression that uteruses come stocked with eggs?

Also, even if someone male did manage to get a uterus implanted, and got doctors to create embryos via IVF, there's no way a pregnancy could occur and be successful. First of all, how exactly would the embryo(s) get inside the uterus? Where would the uterus get the signals and biochemicals needed to create the new lining, and bring about all the changes in the uterine tissue and environment, to allow for implantation and the development of a placenta? No way that a pregnancy could come about, much less continue to full viability, without female genes, female immune function, a female endocrine system, female kidney function, a female pelvis and skeletal structure, female internal anatomy, etc. Even if a male pelvis could somehow accommodate the size of a uterus as it grows over the course of pregnancy, a male circulatory system and male kidneys could not handle the job of processing and cleansing all the extra fluid volume.

The considerably larger size of the other male organs - and the way they are suspended inside the abdomen and torso - would get in the way of the expanding uterus, too. One of the reasons women have much smaller hearts, lungs and livers is to allow room for pregnancy - and our internal organs are more mobile than male internal organs are too, which allows them actually to move out of the way of the growing uterus when we are pregnant.

[–][deleted]  (41 children)

[removed]

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

    What a frightening lack of empathy combined with an unshakeable conviction that you know better than all others what is good for children.

    Lmao, better than trying to control them and stopping them from transitioning no matter what. Kids are not the property of their parents.

    Too bad so sad for anyone who isn’t a child demanding cross-sex hormone treatment, they should know better. 🙄

    Yes, exactly, stop making these decisions for people who are not you.

    You cannot or will not specifically answer questions but apparently think that vague hand waves at “rights” and “agency”

    I've been in these spaces for 3-4 years and I have seen them devolve and become increasingly transphobic. I know where I stand now: against you, supporting the rights of trans people which includes the right of teens and adults to transition. Could you maybe explain why exactly you should be involved in my healthcare?

    At least you get that in the end it absolutely is about rights and agency; all this discussion and fearmongering about harm is pointless. Like, should a pregnant woman care if you think abortion is harmful, before seeking one? No, of course not, not even if there were a minority group of loud and bitter people who had had abortions and regretted it.

    If there are potential health issues with HRT, we will figure those out and support each other, but it won't mean stopping HRT.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    Like, should a pregnant woman care if you think abortion is harmful, before seeking one? No, of course not

    Women get abortions to terminate pregnancies when we cannot or do not want to carry the child to term. When women get abortions, we usually take great pains to go to abortion-providers that won't do things that can put our life at risk, cause us to end up infertile, or reduce our overall life spans - such as giving us infections, removing or perforating the uterus, and lacerating the vagina.

    When women get pregnant intentionally, or decide to continue with pregnancies that began accidentally, we go to great lengths to avoid doing anything that might harm the developing embryo/fetus or could have negative effects on him/her long after birth. Pregnant women curb their diet, drug intake, exposure to chemicals, and activities considerably to protect the developing offspring, even though doing so is often a big drag and denies us pleasures we very much desire. We don't drink booze, smoke weed or cigarettes, eat shellfish, eat Caesar dressing or other food items with raw egg in them, go to smoky dives, use hair dye and certain cosmetics and skin treatments... We avoid nearly all OTC and prescription drugs even when we get very sick... We get scolded by baristas for ordering coffee with caffeine.

    Also, when women get abortions, do you really think we pay no mind to whether we might undergo harms in the process or as a result? Lots of women have ended up seriously ill, infertile and with lifelong complications because of abortions that were done by butchers, or were accidentally botched. One of my own sisters nearly died of sepsis after an abortion in 1970. She later had many miscarriages and died at age 45 of uterine cancer... She, her family and her doctors all believe her miscarriages, cancer and early death were related to that abortion.

    I really think it would be better if you didn't talk about the experiences of women around pregnancy the way you do. Your belief that we customarily make decisions about our own bodies and reproductive capacities without a care in the world for any possible negative consequences for our own health or the health of any actual or potential offspring makes you come across as utterly clueless and very callous. To my mind, it just goes to show how very little you know of what women and girls go through.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    I'm really sorry about your sister <3

    And I never said that you don't consider the consequences of having an abortion or don't try to minimize harm. I don't know what it is like to be pregnant yet but I would want the best for my kid and I would obviously try to find providers that aren't going to cause me problems.

    But what shouldn't be the case, is gatekeeping your decision behind whether some random person thinks you've done enough thinking about it. It's your body, and while it's definitely a good thing to try and be safe, there shouldn't be anyone forcing you to go about it in a certain way. You're allowed to do as much or as little consideration as you like, it's still your choice to make.

    You're casting me as unaware and callous but I don't even need to know how you make your decisions, just support your right to make them. And I do! Like in taking HRT I'm making a decision for my health as well but I weigh the options and any potential issues are worth it, for me personally.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Thank you for your kind comment. (BTW, can you fill me in on what the less-than symbol plus the numeral 3 is supposed to mean?)

    I am not trying to dictate what you or other adults do. I am just taking issue with your repeatedly expressed view a) that you and others like you know best about what should happen to all children with sex and gender distress, all of whom are other people's children; and b) that what would be best for them is to give them medical interventions when they are tweens and young teens that will have serious, lifelong, irreversible effects on their health. You've ping-ponged back and forth between 1) insisting all these effects are harmless; 2) admitting that many of these effects will cause harm and lead to regret, but saying "so what? big deal;" and 3) claiming that whether they are harmful or not doesn't matter because in the name of "trans rights" everyone, even minors, should be able to do whatever the hell they want to their own bodies regardless of the harms they might suffer, because trans people being able to exercise total bodily autonomy is far more important than trans people being able to experience bodily health and enjoy full function of all body parts.

    I am also taking issue with the kinds of sweeping statements you've made that reflect what I believe to be inaccurate assumptions how other people make decisions about medical interventions and other matters that can affect health, diminish fertility and narrow people's life options.

    what shouldn't be the case, is gatekeeping your decision behind whether some random person thinks you've done enough thinking about it. It's your body, and while it's definitely a good thing to try and be safe, there shouldn't be anyone forcing you to go about it in a certain way. You're allowed to do as much or as little consideration as you like, it's still your choice to make.

    When it comes to medical decisions, or decisions that affect or can affect health and wellbeing, you seem to regard all safeguards; all treatment protocols, standards and guidelines; all ethics reviews and panels; all professional discretion exercised by HCPs and HCFs; and all advice from others suggesting caution as overly-interfering and draconian "gatekeeping." I disagree.

    You present medical care, surgeries and other procedures as though they only involve one single person: the patient, or the recipient. You make it sound like getting an abortion, having a GnRH implant inserted like was done to Jazz Jennings, getting a "gender affirming" surgery, getting a prescription for a child to be put on cross-sex hormones and hormone suppressant drugs like Spiro etc as sort of like going to an automatic teller machine and getting cash, or using a vending machine: faceless transactions involving no human interaction.

    But that's not the case: in medical care and procedures lots of people are involved beyond the patient/recipient. When someone has surgery, there are many others who actually do all the work: the surgeon or surgeons, the office staff who get the insurance clearance, the insurance company, the intake staff at the facility where the surgery takes place, the prep nurses, the OR nurses, the anesthesiologist, the recovery room staff, the discharge nurse... and so on. You seem to think that none of these people should be allowed to have any say in what is done to patients. You seem to think if I want my legs cut off because seeing the way my once gorgeous, shapely and strong gams look now that I am old, wrinkled, flabby and my joints are swollen due to health problems etc causes me "dysphoria" and grief, makes it impossible for me to look in the mirror, makes me not want to go out, and feeds into my depression and anxiety, then I should be able to rock up to a surgery center and get my legs amputated - no questions asked. And you seem to think that if anyone refused or expressed hesitancy, or recommended I get therapy instead, it would be gatekeeping and a violation of my rights.

    Because I have the impression that I am A LOT older than you - and I have a complicated medical history due to lots of unusual health problems personally, along with the usual gynecological issues and pregnancies; serious genetic conditions in my family (had two siblings with cystic fibrosis, one who died when we were kids, the other at 24 when I was 32; then sister who died of cancer; mother also died of cancer in her 50s when I was 24, etc) - I think I have more experience with the medical system than you. And more experience with what you call "gatekeeping." Because of my own experiences, the experiences of many friends, and dealing with the medical issues of my children as a parent, as well as helping friends deal with the medical conditions their kids have faced (such as childhood cancers), I see the whole issue of medical "gatekeeping" as far more complex than you do. I see the pros and cons of it - and I see it from various perspectives, not just from the perspective of patients who believe that whatever medical services a person wants should available and provided with no questions asked. I've also served on two civil juries in medical malpractice cases where aggrieved patients complained that doctors didn't do enough and also that doctors did too much, and what they did was wrong - so I can see these issues from a whole bunch of different sides.

    I wish you well, and hope you will not come to regret any of the decisions you have made for your own health as an adult. But you and other adults like you are not my concern. My concern is the kids whose health you want to dictate. But please for heaven's sake consider for a moment that maybe you and other persons like you aren't best placed to be deciding and dictating what everyone else with sex and gender distress should do, particularly those who are children.

    [–]beris😎[M] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

    Since we've devolved to thinly veiled personal attacks, congrats, you're done. Welcome to try again though.

    [–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

    How is HP calliing out derrple's unwinglingness to answer questions and derrple's self-admitted absolute lack of concern for the harms done by "medically transitioning" children and teens a personal attack?

    [–]beris😎 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (29 children)

    What a frightening lack of empathy combined with an unshakeable conviction that you know better than all others what is good for children.

    Thinly veiled personal attack.

    [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

    Observation of insincere and bad faith arguments. For a mod you start a lot of snarky shit while contributing zero to the community.

    [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Beris has had a problem with me since day one.

    [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    It’s not a thinly veiled anything it was an observation about a comment.