QT: Oli London (a British man) has come out as a "Korean woman". Can you explain how being "transgender" is any different than being "transracial"?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It's not different except in the regard that there currently exists less effective transition technology and medication for ppl to appear as a different race. But if someone actually were to pass as Korean, live as Korean and immerse themselves in culture and be "stealth", then for all intents and purposes they are as Korean as someone born in South Korea.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Saying "transition" technology is just less effective for trans identified poeple is a big understatement. "Transition" is not possible because there is technology to actually change someone's sex. In order to do that, you'd need to change someone's sex chromosomes in their every cell and somehow undone the development of their reproductive system and trigger the devopment of the reproductive system of the opposite sex. Exogenous hormones and cosmetic surgeries can only provide supperficial changes, and the results of "medical transition" are often, particularly for trans identified males, not very convincing. It's not wonder that trans identified male athletes often experience a big boost after switching to women's leagues unlike trans identified female athletes who are far away from conquering men's sports.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Sex is not just one single factor, it's not just chromosomes. Who cares about what chromosomes trans people have when you will never see them? Transition tech is focused on sex hormones which provide a great deal of physical changes, including fat redistribution and breast development for trans women.

Like I'd love to one day change all the cells in my body to the chromosomal pairing I feel fits me, but I'm not hung up over it. My friends, coworkers, and strangers all know me as a woman and that's more than good enough. Yeah people tend to downplay how important voice and other things are for passing, but you should consider that the trans people more likely to "pass" to you are also more likely to not reveal themselves as trans to people, so it's just confirmation bias. I mean I'd never tell my coworkers because what if one of them is GC? I'd never hear the end of it and I'd feel super unsafe.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Sex is not just one single factor, it's not just chromosomes.

Actuallly, yes, it's sex chromosomes what determines which sex one developes as. Sex is about reproduction. We're an anisogamic species, which means we reproduce through the production of specialized cells with half the DNA (gametes) of different size. Male individuals are the ones who produce small gametes (spermatozoon) in the testes, and females are the ones who produce large gametes (ovum) in the ovaries. Then, a spermatozoon and an ovum fuse to form the zygote, restoring this way the normal amount of DNA. In humans, there are several genes involved in the process of sex determination, but one of the most important is the SRY gen. If this gen is present, then the embryo will develop testes. If not, then it’ll will develop ovaries. The hormones secreted by the testes drive the male differentiation pathway for the rest of the male reproductive organs. And the absence of these hormones drives the female differentiation pathway. As the SRY gen is located in the Y chromsome, XX individuals are females and XY individuals are males.

There are some people who have a disorder of sexual development (DSD), but they are rare and they are still either male or female, i.e. they don't produce a third type of gamete.

Who cares about what chromosomes trans people have when you will never see them?

First, we know trans identified people are mostly either unambigous 46, XY males or 46, XX females.

Second, we don’t need to examine someone’s chromosomes or gametes to tell their sex. Secondary sex characteristics don’t define sex, but they are usually a good way to tell someone’s sex. We have evolved to be able to tell the sexes apart. If we weren’t able to say who kind of humans are able to get pregnant and what kind of humans can impregnate the former our continuity as species will be quite complicated. Taking sex hormones and undergoing cosmetic surgeries in order to look more like the opposite sex may make this harder, but it's still possible to tell trans identified people sex in many cases.

Transition tech is focused on sex hormones which provide a great deal of physical changes, including fat redistribution and breast development for trans women.

But, as I said exogenous hormones can only bring superficial changes, which is why there are so many trans identified male athletes who experience a big boost in their carreers as soon as they switch into the female categories (a point you have just ignored). There was also a case of a trans identified female who, because she had her medical records changed to state she is "male", found out in the harsh way being treated as a male in a medical setting can put her health and life at risk.

but you should consider that the trans people more likely to "pass" to you are also more likely to not reveal themselves as trans to people, so it's just confirmation bias

Maybe, but I think this claim is throw around to make it seem like there are way more "passing" trans identified people than we think while providing no data to back it up. And at the end of the day, "passing" as the opposite sex doesn't make you the opposite sex. It only means you have successfuly concealed your sex, but I don't one can hide the truth from all people all the time even if one tried very hard to do so.

I mean I'd never tell my coworkers because what if one of them is GC? I'd never hear the end of it and I'd feel super unsafe.

On what do you base this belief that you would be unsafe if any hipothetical GC coworker were to learn your sex? Depending on where you live/work said coworker would have more basis to fear being fired or harrased for their political beliefs on these issues, particular if said coworker were a woman. For example:

J. K. Rowling and the trans activists: a story in screenshots

Etsy bans craft-maker from selling 'I love JK Rowling' items that 'promote hatred'... while promoting badges and cards carrying slogan 'F*** JK Rowling'

The children's author CANCELLED by her publisher after backing J.K. Rowling: GILLIAN PHILIP tells how she was left to fear for her young readers in a world where daring to speak your mind can spell disaster

New York literary agent who 'stands with J K Rowling' is fired for retweeting comment that read, 'being vulnerable to male violence does not make you a woman' on her personal Twitter account

LGBTQ Blog Publishes List Of Female Athletes’ Names, Harassing Them For Asking NCAA To Protect Women’s Sports

Transgender Activists Threaten Feminist for Focusing on Male Violence Against Women

Two Oregon Educators Fired After Speaking Out About Gender Identity Policies

Cancelled by Childline: Ex-barrister lost his job as a volunteer counsellor with the charity after raising fears over the way children confused about their gender are rushed into changing sex

The trans lobby can't bully me into silence: It’s the bitterest of ironies — how this academic studying violence against women was targeted by protesters with balaclavas simply for attending a feminists’ meeting

How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

David Bell: Tavistock gender clinic whistleblower faces the sack

Oxford professor given protection following threats from trans activists

It wasn’t just the students spreading lies and hounding me... It was many of my academic colleagues too: KATHLEEN STOCK reveals what it’s really like to be vilified for your beliefs after being driven out of Sussex University by trans hate mob

Open University criminology professor who said 'male-bodied' trans women should NOT be in female prisons suffers public harassment and is compared to a 'racist uncle at Christmas dinner table' for her gender critical beliefs

Woman Brutalized for Refusing to Bow to Compelled Pronouns & Public Recognition of Transgender-Identifying Male

Police Do Nothing as Trans Activist Mob Terrorizes Attendees, Kicks Windows, Screams, at Woman’s Place UK Meeting

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Actuallly, yes, it's sex chromosomes what determines which sex one developes as

There are no genes that an afab person has that I don't. Hormones control many sexed development processes from the very beginning. If a male fetus is insensitive to testosterone, then it will develop as externally female externally regardless of an SRY gene.

If hormones meant and did nothing, then trans women wouldn't have breasts and be capable of breastfeeding, trans men's voices would not drop and there wouldn't be changes to where and how the body stores fat, no skeletal changes when beginning cross-sex hrt early enough.

Second, we don’t need to examine someone’s chromosomes or gametes to tell their sex. Secondary sex characteristics don’t define sex, but they are usually a good way to tell someone’s sex. We have evolved to be able to tell the sexes apart.

Lol. Keep telling yourself that. I hate my body and face a lot but I haven't been clocked irl in literal years. People are less good at picking out trans people than you think and when they try they invariably end up harassing gnc cis people too.

(a point you have just ignored).

Because tbh I don't care. Obviously athletes who are just getting to be themselves will probably have more energy for a while.

And at the end of the day, "passing" as the opposite sex doesn't make you the opposite sex. It only means you have successfuly concealed your sex, but I don't one can hide the truth from all people all the time even if one tried very hard to do so.

I'd love to "be" the opposite and I have hope for medical or transhumanist science to help me with that in time, but passing isn't so bad. You're right, of course I tell people, but it's controlled. I only really am openly trans online, and I don't care about hiding the truth from anyone else.

On what do you base this belief that you would be unsafe if any hipothetical GC coworker were to learn your sex?

They would undoubtedly create a hostile work environment for me and other coworkers through misgendering etc. Also, I'm never going to support violence, but have you seen the abuse trans people receive online? You can hardly post anything positive as a trans person without some gender critical random saying YWNBAW or something equally inane. There was a trans woman who was beaten up at a protest in the UK. There are parents of trans kids who talk about wanting to punch them (saw this just this morning).

There was a great article about a trans woman breastfeeding her kid and do you know what people said about her? They called her milk "sewage". They called her awful things and said she was a fetishist just for trying to feed her kid. They took what should be a beautiful moment (because it really is so amazing to me that such a thing is possible; it gives me hope) and tried to squash it into the dirt.

So yeah I really don't care if transphobic authors or researchers get cancelled. They deserve to get cancelled. Again I will never support violence and it's awful that people have been physically hurt. I want that to stop, leave it at cancellation, etc. But it's not some sort of "gotcha" that will make me not support trans people. We receive plenty of your abuse too. I've just realized that trying to be nice is just going to get me steamrolled.

found out in the harsh way being treated as a male in a medical setting can put her health and life at risk.

Trust me, if having my gender as F in the medical system is what kills me, then I'll welcome that death, I'm not going out of this world with an M in any system.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There are no genes that an afab person has that I don't.

Just you know, there are about 6500 genes that expressed differently in women and men.

Hormones control many sexed development processes from the very beginning. If a male fetus is insensitive to testosterone, then it will develop as externally female externally regardless of an SRY gene.

No, you're wrong. Sex determination is the first step in developing a male or female reproductive system, and that is decided by sex chromosomes as I explained it to you. The actions of sex hormones comes later. Sex development and sex differentiation are quite complex process; so it's unsurprising there are many things that could go wrong. That is why some people have DSDs. In the case of male with CAIS, while they look like women, they are still biologically male and it would not be wise to treat them like females in a medical setting, for instance.

If hormones meant and did nothing, then trans women wouldn't have breasts and be capable of breastfeeding, trans men's voices would not drop and there wouldn't be changes to where and how the body stores fat, no skeletal changes when beginning cross-sex hrt early enough.

I've never said hormones did nothing. I said taking exogenous hormones won't transform a man into a woman or viceversa.

Because tbh I don't care.

Interesting how you call yourself a woman, yet you keep showing, here and in other threads, very little if any concern about how women are harmed by pro-QT policies. It seems like the only "women" you care about are thoses who are born with testes.

Obviously athletes who are just getting to be themselves will probably have more energy for a while.

And it's just an incredible coincidence that the only trans indentified athletes who experience a big boost after "transition" are the males ones, right?

They would undoubtedly create a hostile work environment for me and other coworkers through misgendering etc.

The fact that your first worry is about "misgendering" it's very telling because that has nothing to do with safety. And if you were secure in your own "identity", why would you be bothered by people refering to you by your sex? I've been mistaken for a man on the internet and also on the phone/interphone because I've a deep voice for a woman, and I didn't go through an identity crisis because of that and neither I've ever thought of punishing people for their mistakes.

You can hardly post anything positive as a trans person without some gender critical random saying YWNBAW or something equally inane. There was a trans woman who was beaten up at a protest in the UK. There are parents of trans kids who talk about wanting to punch them (saw this just this morning).

Please provide receipts.

There was a great article about a trans woman breastfeeding her kid and do you know what people said about her? They called her milk "sewage".

It' not possible for a trans identified male to breasfeed his child. You can indeed induce a man to lactate, but there is not evidence that his discharge could provide the same nourishment that a mother's breast milk or even baby formula. A trans identified male trying to breasfeed his child is puting his own feeling about the safety and wellbeing of the baby.

They called her awful things and said she was a fetishist just for trying to feed her kid. They took what should be a beautiful moment (because it really is so amazing to me that such a thing is possible; it gives me hope) and tried to squash it into the dirt.

Considering all the trans identified males who had admitted they discovered their "authentic self" through porn, I think it's fair to question whether a trans identified male has an ulterior motive to "breastfeed" his kid.

We receive plenty of your abuse too

Again, provide receipts, please. And I hope it's something more serious than "misgendering".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Just you know, there are about 6500 genes that expressed differently in women and men.

Then hormones and future gene therapies can help those genes be expressed differently.

In the case of male with CAIS, while they look like women, they are still biologically male and it would not be wise to treat them like females in a medical setting, for instance.

CAIS women are still women. "Biologically male" is practically a meaningless designator.

I've never said hormones did nothing. I said taking exogenous hormones won't transform a man into a woman or viceversa.

That depends entirely on your definition of what men and women "are", though?

Interesting how you call yourself a woman, yet you keep showing, here and in other threads, very little if any concern about how women are harmed by pro-QT policies.

Interesting how my being a woman to you depends on whether I bow down and stay quiet, something that women, cis or trans, have been fighting against since the dawn of agriculture.

GC people and right-wingers are literally the only people who ever have a problem with my existence. Me being a woman, or anyone being a woman, does not intrinsically hurt anyone. Ofc there are trans people who have done bad actions, but that is true of any demographic, and just as it would be discriminatory to apply the actions of bad apples to the entire group for literally any other group of women, it's discriminatory for trans women too.

And it's just an incredible coincidence that the only trans indentified athletes who experience a big boost after "transition" are the males ones, right?

Perhaps testosterone euphoria takes longer for trans men, I wouldn't really know and would have to ask, sorry.

The fact that your first worry is about "misgendering" it's very telling because that has nothing to do with safety. And if you were secure in your own "identity", why would you be bothered by people refering to you by your sex

My first worry when telling a man is worse than misgendering, but I've mainly been physically abused by men so I'm just more scared of them physically hurting me.

Also, I doubt I can ever be secure in my identity. Me being a woman is determined by others and what they think, not by me. I'm kind of ashamed of being trans still, and I just do not want people to know, because I am very embarrassed and self-conscious about it. Not that you care, but then again you're already playing the "who cares about who" game. And yeah, I know how I feel, it's how I've felt my entire life. But how I feel means nothing to most people, how I look and present is how they decide.

Please provide receipts.

Trans girl assaulted: https://twitter.com/trans_safety/status/1529795151593451520?t=t8XD9UnvF4PnYJ7mR6aF0Q&s=19

Parent wanting to punch their kid: https://twitter.com/CaelanConrad/status/1531764615864107008?t=n9-7eCkbvZ07EZxR2kebww&s=19

If it's alright I'll send further receipts in the next reply, I'm on mobile and it's hard to copy and paste from twitter without losing the text here

It' not possible for a trans identified male to breasfeed his child. You can indeed induce a man to lactate, but there is not evidence that his discharge could provide the same nourishment that a mother's breast milk or even baby formula. A trans identified male trying to breasfeed his child is puting his own feeling about the safety and wellbeing of the baby.

It's been literally documented that trans women's breasts are histologically identical to cis women's at the tissue level: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5773616/

A protocol exists for inducing lactation properly and several trans women have breastfed their children. There are countless guides on what to take that I've seen in the DIY community. If it were "discharge", doctors would know, and those kids would be much worse off. In breastfeeding our kids, trans women are llmaking the exact same decision cis mothers are: we want the best for our kids and if lactation can be induced medically then we're okay doing so. Just because it's not triggered endogenously doesn't mean it's wrong or gross.

And no, it's not fair to assume that a trans mother is a porn addict just based on that. Breastfeeding is not a sexual act.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

CAIS women are still women. "Biologically male" is practically a meaningless designator.

Women don't have testes. But that is besides the point because males who identify as trans don't have CAIS, anyway. You're using this medical condition as a gotcha even though the experiences of males with CAIS and the experiences of males who identify as "trans" are completely different.

That depends entirely on your definition of what men and women "are", though?

It's not "my" definition. The two sexes exist regardless of of whether or not you want to give a name to the individuals who belong to the biological category able to produce large gametes and another the individuals who belong to the biological category able to produce small gametes.

Interesting how my being a woman to you depends on whether I bow down and stay quiet, something that women, cis or trans, have been fighting against since the dawn of agriculture.

First, I said nothing about staying quiet. I said you showed no concern for whether women may be hurt as consequences of pro-TRA policies.

Second, I stand by the definition of women a men being biology-based. What I said was a observation about your atitude (and the attitude of other people like you) towards women. An observation that was born from the frustation of hearing all the time about how women must include and prioritize "transwomen" in everything because they are "women" after all. And yet males who claim to be "women" way more often than not show no concern for the needs of women. So, how exactly is the dynamic between women and trans identified males any different from the dynamic between women and men?

Me being a woman is determined by others and what they think, not by me.

If you really think that you being a "woman" is not determined by you, then you should not get upset if someone refuses to view you as one.

It's been literally documented that trans women's breasts are histologically identical to cis women's at the tissue level: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5773616/

This paper is about how the use of exogenous hormones affects the risk of breast cancer on trans identified individuals. It says nothing about breastfeeding. There is no evidence trans identified males are able to breastfeed babies as this article explains.

And no, it's not fair to assume that a trans mother is a porn addict just based on that. Breastfeeding is not a sexual act.

Breastfeeding is not a sexual act, but males cannot breastfeed regardless of how they "identify" as. And you can find countless examples of males who identify as trans explaining how they discovered their "womanhood" through porn.