QT: why should "transwomen" be allowed into women's spaces at all?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

These spaces shouldn't be segregated to begin with.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Why not? The many reasons for segregating these kinds of spaces by sex has been presented to you numerous times.

Please spell out all the reasons why you believe there should be no sex segregation.

Also, please explain how female people - the whole range of us, including little girls, teenage girls, pregnant women and girls, breastfeeding women, frail elderly women, women and girls with disabilities, observant Jews and Muslims, nuns, female victims of CSA, rape, sexual assault and harassment - benefit from making it impossible for us to have any place outside our homes where we can get away from the male gaze, male sexual advances, male prurience, male sexual harassment, male bullying, male intrusiveness, male threats, male intimidation, male sexual assault and male violence?

Tell me, how exactly does the human race benefit by enacting policies that will make it so difficult and uncomfortable for women to breastfeed and express milk outside the home that large numbers of mothers will inevitably wean their offspring much earlier than is optimal for their health, or they will never breastfeed at all?

How does it help human beings individually, and our species collectively, to make sure that most of the world's population will be deprived of the enormous lifelong physical and mental health benefits of breastfeeding? How does making breastfeeding more difficult, and less likely, benefit the poor of the world in particular?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

First, most women don't want sex-segregated spaces, and I can say that confidently. I know I cited this study a hundred times, but only 40% of women support requiring trans people to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth. That means 60% of women are OK with otherwise. 60% is more than half of women. 51% of cis men support requiring trans people to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth. Also, according to this poll, 59% of men support banning trans women in women's sports compared to 46% of women. 29% of men oppose banning trans women in women's sports compared to 34% of women.

Every poll I find about trans issues, they all have one thing in common. Regardless of percentage results or fluctuation, cis women are more likely to support trans rights than cis men. Why? I've seen talks in gender critical spaces about "class analysis" and what's good for women as a class. Considering that, studies show women as a class don't want sex segregated spaces. Well, most women don't want sex segregated spaces. 60% of women is a lot.

I am a cis woman. I am also an Ashkenazi Jew, learning disabled and I have been a teenage girl and a victim of sexual harassment numerous times. I am still against sex segregated spaces. While it's only men harassing me on the street, 99% of men aren't harassing me. Any man who commits sexual harassment or assault should face consequences in the justice system. Actually this applies to everyone, not just men. A few weeks ago a strange man on the street made me uncomfortable. Even if a few men are sexually harassing me, I can't expect all men to be banned from the street that time in the evening, or banned from that particular area. Nor do I want this. My privacy is also not violated by having a man in the women's restroom. Restrooms have stalls, so unless I don't lock the door I have all the privacy I need in the world, regardless of who is washing their bands next to me.

[–]Juniperius 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The polls you cite are invalid, because the people being polled are being lied to by omission. In order for any poll about trans issues to be valid, the people being polled must be informed that approximately 85% of transwomen choose to keep their penises and use them sexually, and that a large majority of transwomen are attracted to women. If the polls were honest about these facts, I can guarantee that the outcomes would be very different.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

approximately 85% of transwomen choose to keep their penises and use them sexually, and that a large majority of transwomen are attracted to women

I agree that the polls cited are tosh for the reasons you say. But the number who choose to keep their penises and testicles nowadays is more like 95%. And more than a large majority of adult male humans who adopt a trans identity are attracted to women; the overwhelming majority of them are attracted to women.

Many males who identify as trans women today don't just keep their penises and balls, they write texts and give talks in which they proudly boast about their penises and the enormous powers and wondrous, magical properties they believe their penises have. Examples of this genre include Julia Serano's classic "Cocky" from some years ago, and Grace Lavery's newly-published memoir, "Please Miss: A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Penis."

Re the fact that nearly all adult males who identify as trans today keep their penises and balls: One of the reasons there is such a push to be able to do genital surgeries on male minors before they have reached the age of consent and cognitive maturity is the fact that most full-grown adult males who identify as trans avoid such surgeries like the plague, and understandably so since most adult males enjoy the ability to orgasm and find it vital to their lives. So just as the "gender affirming" medical "care" industry is promoting double mastectomies as a panacea to a target audience that consists entirely of tween and teenage girls and doesn't bother trying to peddle these surgeries as mental health boosters to older women, the gender medicine industry has zeroed in on underage boys who were transed by their parents in childhood like Jazz Jennings, Jackie Green, Trinity Neal and Kim Petras as the main market for "male to female bottom surgeries." Gotta get 'em young, because once they've grown up, these male youths might say no.

https://youtu.be/L240CPOJ6FM

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Perhaps yes, the results may be very different. However, I notice all polls about trans issues have one thing in common. Some polls show an increase in support for trans rights. Others show a decrease in support for trans rights. But the one thing they all have in common is that women are significantly more likely to support trans rights than men. This is true for every poll I have seen that surveys both women and men. In fact, cis women are the biggest allies to trans people. I'd bet all my life savings that if there was a poll that informed participants beforehand that 85% of transwomen choose to keep their penises and use them sexually and that a large majority of transwomen are attracted to women, women would still be more supportive of trans rights than men.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, when questioned about whether we support "rights" for minority groups, women are more likely than men to say yes. That is to women's credit. Even women like me who get painted as evil "terven" and bigots very much support the right of adults to dress, groom, present and "identify as" they like. We don't think that people who identify as the opposite sex, or of neither sex, should be unfairly discriminated against or mistreated.

But when you spell out the specifics of what the vague, intentionally anodyne term "trans rights" actually means, then women tend to see the conflicts and are less supportive of many of the unreasonable and male supremacist demands that are hiding under the cover of "trans rights."

Do you support trans rights? is a very different question to the questions that really need to be asked, such as

Do you think males should be able to compete in female sports?

When men and teenage boys say they "identify as" or "feel like" women/girls, should they be able to use women's single-sex locker rooms, changing rooms, showers, shelters, communal toilets, rape refuges, hospital wards and other spaces where girls and women are partly or fully naked and at their most vulnerable?

When a big strapping adult male like U Penn swimmer Lia Thomas or convicted sex offender Darren Merager goes into a women's changing area, spa, locker room or fitting room and exposes his dick and balls to the girls and women who are there, is it bigoted and hateful for the girls and women to feel discomfort or distress? Are the girls and women rude for taking notice and feeling alarmed? If someone is asked to leave the women's facilities and use another space, who should it be - the males, or the females?

Should violent males who've been convicted of murder, assault and battery, rape of women, child molestation, voyeurism, indecent exposure and serial murders of women and girls be incarcerated in women's prisons if they say they now "identify as" women themselves?

Is it fair to a female prison inmate to lock her in a cell with a male inmate who is not only much bigger and stronger than she is, but who has a history of assaulting and sexually abusing others and who in men's prison strangled his male cellmate to death with his bare hands? When such a male inmate rapes women he has been locked up with, and the women lodge complaints and file lawsuits, should the women be condemned for evincing "transphobia" and punished for their "bigotry"? (These details come from a case that's already happened in Illinois, USA.)