GC: What is wrong with trans people working in sexual violence prevention?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Cis means someone primarily identifies with their birth sex. For instance, if you were born female and identify as a woman, you would be considered a cis woman. You don't have to conform to any stereotypes and roles. You can have short hair, wear ties, work long hours in construction and prefer video games instead of shopping at the mall, and still be considered cis.

We're already have this conversation before. I do NOT "identify" as a woman. I am one. This is a matter of biology, not ideology. And you have admitted before that being "cis" implies to accept sex-based stereotypes as innate.

This is why we use terms like cis and trans when relevant.

Not, this is why SEX is relevant. Thomas' "gender identity" have nothing to do with his atlethic advantage or his behaviour in changing rooms or the fact society pander and defend him.

If other women are not allowed to expose their genitalia, then neither should she. If that’s the case, she should absolutely be charged with exhibitionism and voyeurism. If the other women are allowed to expose their genitalia, why can’t she? Genitalia is genitalia, regardless if it's a penis, vagina or something ambiguous.

...

What is the difference between Thomas and a naked man who don't "identifies" as the opposite sex and gets into the female changing rooms?

Many people including myself would not read/watch media and outlets that use the wrong pronouns for people.

So, you like being lied to?

Yes.

Yeah, I though so. Now, tell me why do you think men would not lie about their "gender identity" for their own benefit?

Again, you can't ban someone from a place because they might commit a crime or because of what demographic they belong to.

... I can't with you! Why are you so against prevention?!

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

We're already have this conversation before. I do NOT "identify" as a woman. I am one. This is a matter of biology, not ideology. And you have admitted before that being "cis" implies to accept sex-based stereotypes as innate.

You may not "identify" as a woman but you consider yourself a woman, if that's the language you want to use. Lia Thomas is also a woman. So is Oprah, Laverne Cox, Rihanna, MJ Rodriguez and me. I never said being cis means to accept sex based stereotypes. By "cis" we mean what someone considers themself, not stereotypes.

Not, this is why SEX is relevant. Thomas' "gender identity" have nothing to do with his atlethic advantage or his behaviour in changing rooms or the fact society pander and defend him.

Society would also "pander" to a trans man who was changing in the men's room. I'm glad Gavin Grimm went after his former high school.

What is the difference between Thomas and a naked man who don't "identifies" as the opposite sex and gets into the female changing rooms?

What is the difference between seeing a vagina and seeing a penis? Genitalia is genitalia. As I said, if cis women are not allowed to display their genitalia, than neither should Lia Thomas.

So, you like being lied to?

No, I like when people are respected, and that means using preferred pronouns.

Yeah, I though so. Now, tell me why do you think men would not lie about their "gender identity" for their own benefit?

I'm sure there are men who would do that but my point is you can't exclude people from public places because they belong to a certain demographic. My high school had airport style metal detectors you had to go through before entering the school. Statistically most school shooters are white males yet every student had the same scanning procedure and were scrutinized equally regardless of what demographic they belonged to. It's not like white males were required to go through separate lines and receive more intense searches.

Likewise, you you can't ban people from public spaces just because they might commit a crime. If a man implanted a camera in the bathroom stall, we would put him in jail. We would do the same thing if a woman implanted a camera. If someone is implanting a camera, it's their behavior that is the problem, not their mere presence. Likewise, if someone robs you on the street, it's their behavior that is the problem, not their presence. By your logic people in demographics who are more likely to rob someone should not have a curfew or walk different streets than the rest of us. We all have the potential to commit a crime. This is not being against safeguarding or prevention.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Again, you can't ban someone from a place because they might commit a crime or because of what demographic they belong to.

you can't exclude people from public places because they belong to a certain demographic.

Sure you can. There are lots of public places where people are barred or their access is restricted because they belong to a certain demographic. For example, people can't get into bars, nightclubs and other "adults only" social and entertainment venues if they are under a certain age. Movie theaters in the US routinely bar young kids from showings of "R" rated films. Most municipalities have senior centers that are off limits to people who are under 62 or 65.

On the other hand, lots of venues for young children don't allow older kids or adults unrestricted access. Lone adults can't get into toddlers' play spaces like soft plays, or into the little kids' birthday party rooms and areas in restaurants and recreation centers. Nor can groups of tweens and teens. To get into places meant for little kids, adults and older children have to be accompanied by a small child within a specific demographic - and even then, there's a limit in the number of adults who can get in.

People can be banned from public facilities due to body characteristics too. Lots of people are prohibited from going on certain public amusement park rides, and from using certain public recreational facilities, if they are under a certain height or over a certain weight and/or girth.

Similarly, if you're unable to hear or see well, you're not strong enough to operate the exit door, or you have mobility problems, you are automatically banned from sitting in exit row on a commercial public airplane.

As for your repeated claim that

you can't ban someone from a place because they might commit a crime

Nonsense. Lots of jurisdictions in the US and in other countries ban people who've been convicted of certain sex crimes from living in close proximity to schools and children's playgrounds. Many jurisdictions prohibit convicted sex criminals from coming within 1000 feet of schools and playgrounds even as passersby. Which means sex convicts under such restrictions can't even walk, jog, drive or take a bus that goes by those places.

My high school had airport style metal detectors you had to go through before entering the school. Statistically most school shooters are white males yet every student had the same scanning procedure and were scrutinized equally regardless of what demographic they belonged to. It's not like white males were required to go through separate lines and receive more intense searches.

Yes, every student enrolled in your school underwent the same scanning procedures. But you don't seem to be aware here that high school students constitute a demographic - and that other demographic groups which together constitute the majority of the population would all automatically be barred from the premises of your school and all other public schools.

The only people automatically allowed into schools are enrolled students and adult employees who work there. At special times and under specific circumstances, adults who are parents, guardians or invitees of students are allowed on the premises too. But even if they've got kids enrolled in a school, adults can't just rock up and walk into public or private schools in the US whenever they want. When adults are allowed into schools, they're still not allowed to use the same toilets that the students use. And whilst a visiting parent might be allowed into a classroom or the library to do volunteer work, or to go to the cafeteria for a parents' meetup coffee hour once in a while, all these activities have to be done with permission granted ahead of time. And under no circumstances would any parents, or any members of the school staff either, be allowed to enter either the girls' or the boys' locker rooms during the school day or other times when students might be using them.

On running forums, young males of 19 and up are constantly expressing shock and outrage to find that they don't have carte blanche to use the track and athletic facilities at their local high school. They mistakenly took it for granted that because a school is public, then its campus and facilities must be open to all the public all the time. So when they've shown up and started using the track, they were totally taken aback when security approached them and told them to leave. College-age young people are often similarly surprised when they decide to drop in at their old HS to say hello to their former teachers and they find they're stopped at the entrance.

Regarding access to tracks on public school campuses, there's been a bit of a stink in the running world of late because members of a certain professional running club have recently been banned from using HS and other public tracks in a city in Arizona. Because members of that club were witnessed shitting near and under the viewing stands.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Addition to my earlier response to GenderBender: What you said about metal detectors at your school was nagging in back of my mind all day, coz it didn't jibe with what I thought I knew. But I wasn't sure that I what I thought I knew was accurate, so I didn't say anything then. But now I've checked, so I've come back to address those points. You said:

My high school had airport style metal detectors you had to go through before entering the school. Statistically most school shooters are white males yet every student had the same scanning procedure and were scrutinized equally regardless of what demographic they belonged to. It's not like white males were required to go through separate lines and receive more intense searches.

First, you are incorrect that in the US "most school shooters are white males." Yes, in the 20 years from the Columbine school shooting in Colorado in spring 1999 through mid-2019, 70% those who've committed or attempted to commit mass school shootings in the US have been white males. But the problem of gun violence in schools is not just one of mass shootings.

From 2013 to 2019, Everytown identified 549 incidents of gunfire on school grounds. Of these, 347 occurred on the grounds of an elementary, middle, or high school,2 resulting in 129 deaths and 270 people wounded. At least 208 of the victims were students. https://everytownresearch.org/maps/gunfire-on-school-grounds/

Whilst mass shootings resulting in fatalities account for 24% of all deaths and 12% of injuries caused by shootings at US schools, mass shootings make up less than 1% (one percent) of all incidents where guns are fired in schools. When you look at who brings guns to school and who is involved in all school shootings, not just the mass ones, you'll also find that black and Latino males are disproportionately involved relative to their numbers in the population (though not necessarily relative to the population of the area where the schools involved are located).

While perpetrators of mass shootings in schools have tended to be white, and the popular narrative around school shootings has focused on predominantly white schools, the larger context of gunfire on school grounds presents a very different picture. Among the 335 shooting incidents at K-12 schools where the racial demographic information of the student body was known, 64 percent occurred in majority-minority schools. The burden of gun violence has a particularly outsized impact on Black students. Although Black students represent approximately 15 percent of the total K-12 school population in America,31 they constitute 25 percent of K-12 student victims of gunfire (those who were killed or injured on school grounds where the race of the victim was known).

https://everytownresearch.org/report/preventing-gun-violence-in-american-schools/

I couldn't find stats on the race/ethnicity of the shooters in minority-majority schools, but if you go through the shootings that have occurred in US schools decade by decade, case by case (lists are on Wikipedia) and look up the news coverage of incidents that occurred in K-12 schools in cities and urban areas where information of the perpetrators was given, you'll find that a lot of the shooters are black and Hispanic males - and a lot of the shootings involve criminal youth gangs or mental illness (or both).

If white males were the predominant group committing shootings in minority-majority schools - and/or they were shooting predominantly black, brown and Asian students - then surely we'd be hearing about this from understandably outraged parents, educators, law enforcement authorities, politicians and activists in media reports and press conferences, protests and government bulletins. After all, look at the amount of coverage and outrage the supposedly racist attack on Jussie Smollett generated before it was revealed to be a hoax. If teenage white boys were gunning down kids of color in US schools, they'd be as infamous as the Covington Catholic school boy who smiled down the older Native American man in the infamous face-off in Washington DC a few years back.

Also, guns are not the only prohibited or dangerous items that school metal detectors and guards are on the lookout for. Knives and weapons like brass knuckles and "nunchuks" aka "karate sticks."

Finally, since you seem to think the reason there are metal detectors in US schools is because of mass school shootings by white males like killers who committed the massacres at Columbine HS, Sandy Hook elementary and Stoneman Douglas, you might be interested to know that the use of metal detectors in schools in the US preceded the first mass school shootings by many years. In NYC, where I used to live, they were in use starting the early 80s (I recall them in the school I used to vote in when Reagan was POTUS). In Detroit, the came into use in the late 80s. In Washington DC, in 1991.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If the other women are allowed to expose their genitalia, why can’t she?

Sheesh, with thinking like this, it's no wonder that so many media stories extolling the remarkableness of the latest "pregnant man" and the miraculous nature of the most recent "man who gave birth" say these individuals were shocked to discover they'd gotten pregnant in the first place.

For the record because some here seem intent on denying the obvious: people with penises can use their penises to impregnate people with vaginas. People with vaginas cannot use their vaginas or vulvas or any other organs to impregnate people with penises.

Indeed, people with penises can not become impregnated by any means whatsoever, not under any circumstances or at any time in their lives. For all of human history, people with penises have been having sex with other people with penises, and in these acts lots of sperm has been exchanged - yet never, ever has any person with a penis gotten pregnant. Not even once. Funny dat.

The fact that only people with penises can impregnate, and they can do so their whole lives starting age 12-15, but they can never ever become pregnant themselves whilst people with vaginas can never impregnate but they can become pregnant for a good portion of their lives generally starting circa age 9-13, puts these two groups of people in entirely different risk categories.

People with penises pose a risk of impregnation to people with vaginas. But at no time in their lives, will people withe penises ever be at risk of being made pregnant by another person of either sex. A person with a penis will never spend a moment of life consumed with worry over a missed period; full fear and horror over the prospect of unwanted pregnancy; scared to death of being beaten, disowned or killed for becoming pregnant outside marriage; panicked about access or lack of access to abortion; or full of dread as pregnancy progresses and the time of having to go through the rigors and pain of human labor and the dangers of human childbirth approaches. Yet all these and other unpleasant experiences are commonplace for the half of the world's population born with vaginas.

In the less developed parts of the world today, the leading cause of death and disabling injury amongst teenage female people is complications of pregnancy and childbirth. Not one teenager with a penis has ever died or become disabled this way.

Hundreds of millions of people with vaginas over the course of history have lost their lives due to being pregnant or giving birth. Not one single person with a penis over the course of history has ever died pregnancy or childbirth.

The imbalance between people with penises and people with vaginas regarding pregnancy is called risk asymmetry. It means your claim that "genitalia is genitalia" is irresponsible hogwash.

Also, how exactly would a woman or girl expose her vagina to others in a change room, restroom, shower or similar place? She'd have to bring a speculum with her, then insert it into herself whilst changing or showering, right? But even if in the highly unlikely event that a girl or woman were to do this, the only people who'd be able to see her vagina would be those who'd actually make an effort to stick their faces right up close to where the speculum is and look inside. Seeing a vagina is not something that occurs by happenstance, nor does it tend to happen in locker rooms and gym showers. Usually, to see another person's vagina in the flesh requires going to medical school.

Genitalia is genitalia, regardless if it's a penis, vagina or something ambiguous.

Genderbender, for your own safety and that of your friends, please be aware that just as this is not the case biologically, it's also not the case legally in many jurisdictions.

The youngest person documented ever to bear a child was 5 years old at the time. Can you guess what kind of genitals this person had? What about the person responsible for this child's pregnancy? If you were one of the authorities tasked with determining how this 5 year-old or any other child got pregnant, would your search focus on people with vaginas - or people with penises? According to you, members of both groups should be held equally under suspicion because

Genitalia is genitalia, regardless if it's a penis, vagina or something ambiguous.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have nothing in common with that cheating pervert!!!

You now what, just forget what I said. Arguing with you is frustating in the best of circunstances and I'd already enough online arguing for the rest of the month before beginning this conversation.

[–]strictly 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Long time no see.

You may not "identify" as a woman but you consider yourself a woman, if that's the language you want to use.

This is disingenuous and also false in your language.

A couple of Germans in Iceland ask their native German translator who is fluent in Icelandic to ask an Icelandic man in the market what he is selling. The Icelandic man answers “kind”, which is the Icelandic word for sheep, and the translator repeats “kind” to the Germans, which is the German word for child, and tells them to alert the police of child trafficking. The translator knows the Icelandic man isn’t identifying as selling a child (referring to selling sheep, not a child) but as the Icelander considers himself selling “kind” the translator thinks if that is the language the Icelander wants to use then he as German will treat the Icelander accordingly.

Is the translator above fair? To a German, in your eyes, should the Icelander be viewed as selling “kind”, the verbatim letters used by the Icelander which happens to be the German word for child, or as selling “schaf”, the German word for sheep which was what the Icelander actually meant?

Even within the same language meanings and letters are separate things. In English “gay” can mean being happily excited, “gay” can also mean being homosexual. If you know Peter is a straight man who has an old fashioned speaking pattern who says he is gay when he is excited and Sarah confesses to you she’s thinking of asking him out, would it be fair to tell Sarah she shouldn’t as Peter has admitted being gay to you? No, as Peter was communicating he was excited while you would be trying to communicate to Sarah that he is homosexual which is false.

What does GC refer to with “woman”? Translated to your terminology it’s an adult AFAB. What do you refer to with “woman”? An adult who shares your gender identity. Its false to portray someone as considering themselves sharing your gender identity when the person merely considers themselves AFAB in your terminology. Being aware of being AFAB is not the same thing as sharing your gender identity which the subreddit ftm on reddit is an example of as it’s full of people who are aware they are AFAB despite not sharing your gender identity. You claim to be against misgendering yet you keep insisting people share your gender identity even after they tell you they don’t for having used letters that has a gendered meaning to you but not to them. That would be similar to me insisting a straight Lesbos resident calling herself a lesbian is lowkey admitting being into woman because lesbian means something else to me than to her.

You are the only QT person here invested in the debate and I always appreciated the fact you take the time. Your tendency for the logical error explained above always annoyed me though. I hope this explanation makes sense to you but feel free ask if something is unclear, similarly feel free to tell me if you disagree with the distinction between letters and meanings and we can have a conversation about it.