Meta: What can we do to stimulate more activity here?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]LemurLemur 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I poked my head in to lurk, and this post inspired me to go dig up my old sign-in info.

I think this sub and the GC people behind it probably should figure out what they want the purpose of this sub to be - civil communication, or "bravely standing up to evil trans people and finally getting to tell them what you REALLY think". I made exactly one post here, asking if the "rudefem" behavior was intentional on GC's part or if it was just an unfortunate byproduct, and I think you, worried, were literally the only person who didn't refuse to even admit that rudeness happens at all. I got a lot of the same answers: 1.) GC aren't rude, you're just stupid 2.) They're rude because this is the only place they can be, so they're allowed to be (but also they aren't rude, you're just stupid.)

I should point out I'm not even trans. My sibling is. Out of curiosity as to what sort of shit they're likely to get for it, I looked at what GC people say, and... yeah, mostly it's "they're disgusting narcissistic degenerate criminals who live to rape and masturbate to violent porn". Hell, the top bullet to most "guide to peaking people" usually starts with "make sure to tell people the transes are doing it for sexual pleasure and they'll rape you as soon as they can get you alone".

So... I'm a little surprised this even needs to be said but... stuff like this isn't fun to interact with. Not for a trans person, and not for anyone that has trans people they care about. It's literally just prejudice, coming from people who claim to want to fight prejudice.

I hang out on other debate subs, and what makes them fun is getting to learn more about people different from you; I've gotten to like people I never thought I would, just by being open minded. I don't get the feeling that is possible here. I don't know if feelings are just too raw for most GC to be neutral about it, but diverse, mixed communities have to rely extra hard on giving each other the benefit of the doubt, and proactively trying to find ways around insults, name-calling, prejudice, stereotyping ect. This sub does not offer that. It's not required to, and I'm not saying it has to. But it doesn't want to. And that makes it hard for anyone non-GC to feel motivated to contribute.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

It was even more of a problem on the old sub, but I agree, a lot of GC women are very "facts don't care about your feelings." Which is true, of course, but even if you don't care about making friends or having true discourse, it's still easier to catch flies with honey. If you want someone to talk to you and consider your perspective, you can't be going 100 miles an hour in the opposite direction. I was often told this is "tone policing" women, but honestly, the same holds true for men. I know a lot of women feel pressure to be nice, but you can not act like a dick and still be strong in your position. Not wavering in your morals and ethics or belief system does not mean bowing down. It just means being genuine and interacting in a respectful manner even with those you adamantly disagree with.

2.) They're rude because this is the only place they can be, so they're allowed to be (but also they aren't rude, you're just stupid.)

Honestly, I get the need to vent. There are certain topics that make me very upset and depressed. But you can't just be venting angrily all the time. It's not a productive use of energy.

I looked at what GC people say, and... yeah, mostly it's "they're disgusting narcissistic degenerate criminals who live to rape and masturbate to violent porn". Hell, the top bullet to most "guide to peaking people" usually starts with "make sure to tell people the transes are doing it for sexual pleasure and they'll rape you as soon as they can get you alone".

Honestly, I think this is overstating it a bit, but there is a certain segment of the GC population who just go on and on about sex offenders and AGP and stuff like that. Of course it exists and is an important issue, but I think they forget that over half the trans population these days is actually natal females and that doesn't even apply. And then they completely forget about the natal male HSTS transsexuals and the transitioned male children. Sometimes on Ovarit, I'm like, can we chill about the trans women just a bit? Frankly, unless it's involving prisons or sports or safeguarding in general, I rarely even think about them. My concern is really for minor children of both sexes and GNC women and girls.

So I agree with you for the most part, but many QT people refuse to argue in good faith. That can also be maddening. The old sub was particularly prone to fights. Safety and employment concerns are also very real for many GC women. On the old sub, there was occasional doxxing. One QT member reported a GC member in New Zealand for child abuse and tried to get her kids taken away from her. There are unhinged people out there. Several women have lost their jobs for being gender critical. So it's not like all the QT people are nice and innocent. There are bad people out there, although I continue to believe that most pro-trans and trans people are decent. The professional activists and Twitter warriors may not be, but ordinary people often still are.

I'm totally all in for respectful discourse. I don't think of this sub as a place to "own" anyone. I would love for us to be able to have conversations and friendships.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's policing women because QT are NOT hold to the same standards. Why is always on us to behave better? Why act as if both sides are rude when one side is objectively far worse in how they behave.

[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

QT should be held to the same standards. If we want this place to be for genuine debate and discussion, then both sides should be civil. We shouldn't tolerate rudeness from either one.

And, yes, obviously QT on places like Twitter are objectively far worse. How does that give us license to act like that right back on the debate sub? How random assholes are acting on Twitter has nothing to do with what conduct we should expect from each other here.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If you think GC users in this sub are as bad as TRA on Twitter, then you're not applying the same standards. Where are all the death and rape threaths, the doxxing, etcetera? I already intervene when arguments get more heated up than usual. If you think we need to get more severe with the moderation, then I assure you there are going to be even less QT posters here.

Worried19, you may not want to hear this, but QT have made quite clear they are NOT interested in debate. It was QT who got the old sub banned. They were the ones who celebrated the ban and chose not to come over here. The posters who came here are not shy about how much they like GC dicourse being shut down in mainstream plataphorms. And the only reason they aren't calling us nazis or acussing us of causing mass suicides every five comments is because we added rules against it to make them stop.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

TRAs on Twitter are far, far worse. I don't think that's in question. But I do believe the rules of our sub should be upheld. It's not okay for GC posters go around calling QT posters their biological sex pronouns or referring to them as "a man" or "a woman." If we can't even refrain from doing that, you can't blame QT for not wanting to stick around. I'm not saying anyone has to lie. That's why "natal male," "natal female," and "they" were considered acceptable compromises.

Worried19, you may not want to hear this, but QT have made quite clear they are NOT interested in debate. It was QT who got the old sub banned. They were the ones who celebrated the ban and chose not to come over here.

I only recall one former QT regular who was happy about the ban. Several of our trans posters were upset by it. We had trans moderators, too. I'm not saying all QT people are happy to debate. Most probably won't engage with us. But some will. And not everyone who arrived on the old sub QT or QT-leaning stayed that way.