How much do we owe to strangers?

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

So you think it's OK to question a random strangers presence in a PUBLIC SPACE when they are not harassing or bothering you? I'm not OK with advocating for sexual assault against children but two wrongs don't make a right.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

But you're talking about bathrooms so you're clearly defining "public space" as "not personal property" (as opposed to "not private property"). So that means you think it's harassment to question the presence of a random strange who has wandered into:

  • a kitchen of a restaurant

  • any employee only zone

  • the operating theater of a hospital

  • a service of a closed religion that they do not practice

etc, etc...

Or do you actually, after all, understand that some spaces are reserved for specific populations but just don't believe that female bodied people deserve their own spaces?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

Or do you actually, after all, understand that some spaces are reserved for specific populations but just don't believe that female bodied people deserve their own spaces?

That's pretty much correct. I believe all public restrooms and changing rooms should be unisex. I also believe changing rooms should have stalls and stalls shouldn't have gaps to give people more privacy. Unless someone is peeking in your stall somehow, you have total privacy.

I feel the same about male spaces. Gavin Grimm and Nick H shouldn't have to sue their schools to be able to use the boys bathroom. As boys, they should already have that right.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

Ok, let's try another aproach. Given that you do not think women (you know the kind who can get pregnant) any space that is exclusive for us, do you feel the same about males who identify as trans (aka "transwomen")? Are such males allowed to have spaces exclusives for them, i.e are they allowed to assamble without the presence of women? If you answer is yes, then what is the difference?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (25 children)

Much of it depends on the space. If trans women wanted bathrooms and locker rooms exclusive to trans women, I would be opposed to it. If trans women wanted a support group for trans women, I wouldn't be opposed to it if the group was about discussing issues specific to trans women. If they are discussing general trans issues, the group should be open to trans men and enbies. Granted, people can gather with and associate with who they want but I don't think public bathrooms and changing rooms should exclude anyone based on sex.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Do you just have some problem with people liking privacy from strangers more than you do? What is so offensive about women not wanting to be topless of taking a shit within two feet of a man? Are they supposed to magically instantly unlearn a lifetime of modesty norms? All to suit a fraction of the population?

Can you explain why privacy and modesty other people may want or need is so problematic to you?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

Do you just have some problem with people liking privacy from strangers more than you do?

I have a different view of privacy than you do. It's is actually more private for a woman to change alone in an enclosed stall with who knows who is in the next stall than it is to undress in the visibility of a bunch of other women. If I was anti-privacy, I wouldn't be pushing for stalls.

Are they supposed to magically instantly unlearn a lifetime of modesty norms? All to suit a fraction of the population?

There are lots of societal norms people need to unlearn. Also, modesty is not a right. If I was on a plane and a Hasidic man sitting next to me demanded I switch seats because it's against his religion to sit next to a woman, my ass is staying parked in the seat unless I get moved to 1st class for free. No one else on the plane would be obligated to switch seats for him.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Why on earth do we need to unlearn desire for privacy or modesty?

Moving away from a Hasidic man is not modesty. I’m not sure what you think modesty is now tbh

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

If I was on a plane, and a Hasidic man sitting next to me is claiming it's immodest and against his religion to sit next to a woman and insists I switch seats, am I obligated to switch seats. Would I be wrong for refusing to switch seats? Would the airline be wrong for refusing to accommodate him?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Are you really trying to compare religious requirements with shrugging off womens wants and needs as being overly modest?

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Also, modesty is not a right

Doesn't this going against your wishes for enclosed stalls?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Modesty and privacy are different things.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/modesty?q=modesty

modesty

2 - the action of behaving or dressing so that you do not show your body or attract sexual attention

The word modesty is appropriate when talking about stalls. Some people may use your own words to justify why they are not necessary at all.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If support groups for "transwomen" that adress their specifics issues are okay, why plain old women cannot have the same? What is wrong with women (using biological based terms here, remember) having support groups exclusive for them? You keep saying males who identify as "women" (aka, "transwomen") are not different from us, but clearly you don't treat the two groups the same way.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

If you mean AFAB, I don't mind support groups specific to AFAB people as long as they are addressing issues specific to AFAB people and not necessarily specific to women. I oppose AFAB and AMAB specific public restrooms and changing rooms.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

And what would be some examples of specific issues for "AFAB people"? Because as far as I remember the only difference between women and males who identify as "women" that you have acknowledged was sports performance.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Strength as you mentioned, pregnancy and periods, prostate and sperm etc.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So what do you think of Lia Thomas and all the other male athletes who identify as "women" who are competing in women's sports?

And what do you think of males who identify as "women" who claim to have periods even though they don't have the required anatomy? What do you think of any of these males being the face of a menstrual product?