About the origins of the word "gender"

submitted by BiologyIsReal from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

You: "I avoid saying gender outside of grammar". Also you: "Gender critical means being critical of all sex stereotypes"

You're unbeliable... I was just repeating the explanation that I've heard for the name of the subs. This was needed because you thought the name was due only to transgenderims. There are plenty of women who, evidently, find the term useful. I'm just not among them.

...um, but I never said Stoller was a feminist, so why would I defend that random statement?

You said that his ideas on "gender" were perfectly concondart with feminism. You also said feminists that femists should reclaim the words "gender" and "gender identity" despite the fact those terms didn't come from feminists in the first place, that was on Money and Stoller. So, why is so imprtant to you that I use these words, other than your reluctance of anyone suing the word sex?

You have this idea that you disagree with him & that I agree with him – when it's the other way 'round. He thinks gender means sex-stereotypes & so do you, I do not agree with Stoller at all. He believed in strict sex stereotypes and "true transsexuals", and found violence against women desirable.

I think we should reject that definition in favour of the original/colloquial one: synonym for biological sex.

You keep saying "gender" instead of "sex". I won't.

Confusingly, you also sometimes use the transgenderist definition of gender.

What are you talkiing about? The only time I use their terms is for debating them.

Gender became synonymous with biological sex again after the end of the 2nd wave. Transgenderism resurrected the differentiation, but changed the definition of gender. So maybe stop blaming Stoller & the word "gender"? Right now there is a battle over the word gender going on & for some reason GC feminists are on the transgenderist side.

Transgenderism didn't come from nowhere, but it's a evolution from transsexualism. And it turns out Stoller was involved in the early days of the latter. I place the original blame of what is happening today in the doctors who decided to enable the fantasies of men who claimed to be "women" and the people who allowed men who took hormones and undergone surgeries to resemble women to legally "change" their sex. I don't think the word "gender" has all the blame, but there is no doubt, imo, trans activists took full advantage of it.

They shake their fists at Stoller & transgenderism, but call themselves "gender critical" thereby using either Stoller's & transgenderism's definition of gender depending on the context.

I did not choose this name and I became mod of this sub by chance. I only use "GC" for convenience when describing the position of posters here.

[–]SnowAssMan 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

You also said feminists should reclaim the words "gender" and "gender identity" despite the fact those terms didn't come from feminists in the first place, that was on Money and Stoller

WTF? "Gender" has been a part of the English language since at least the 19th century, not the 60s, so "gender" didn't come from Stoller. Feminism adopted Stoller's view that gender & sex should have two separate meanings, they also adopted his definition of gender. So how does feminism adopting his distinction between sex & gender make Stoller a feminist?? If anything that would make feminists "Stollerists".

Gender & sex are synonyms. Then the trouble started with Stoller deciding they should describe two different things, then the trouble started in earnest when 2nd-wavers decided to adopt the idea, then the trouble continued with transgenderism also hopping onto the idea that the two words describe separate things, now radical feminists like you guys continue the trouble by also insisting that the two words describe different things. It was a bad & completely unnecessary idea & continues to be a bad idea. Hence my reasonable suggestion to abandon the two separate definitions & go back to treating them as synonyms again, the way most people do anyway.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

WTF? "Gender" has been a part of the English language since at least the 19th century, not the 60s, so "gender" didn't come from Stoller.

I meant the meaning related to the different social norms for women and men.

Feminism adopted Stoller's view that gender & sex should have two separate meanings, they also adopted his definition of gender. So how does feminism adopting his distinction between sex & gender make Stoller a feminist?? If anything that would make feminists "Stollerists".

I never said Stoller was a feminist...

Gender & sex are synonyms. Then the trouble started with Stoller deciding they should describe two different things, then the trouble started in earnest when 2nd-wavers decided to adopt the idea, then the trouble continued with transgenderism also hopping onto the idea that the two words describe separate things, now radical feminists like you guys continue the trouble by also insisting that the two words describe different things. It was a bad & completely unnecessary idea & continues to be a bad idea. Hence my reasonable suggestion to abandon the two separate definitions & go back to treating them as synonyms again, the way most people do anyway.

Can you at least adress my actual points instead of someone else's ones? I already told you I avoid using the word gender. So how am I to blame for the confusion between "gender" and sex?

[–]SnowAssMan 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Why won't you say gender instead of sex? The reason other feminists don't is bc they have adopted Stoller's stipulative definition of gender & use it in place of the regular English language definition gender as a synonym for the sexes. That's not your reason though, supposedly. So what is your reason?

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

But I already told you why... Maybe stop trying to see where I fit in whatever your idea of an average GC woman is and actually read what I say.

I don't have your aversion towards the word sex because I grew up thinking of sex as whether someone is male or female. That is how it works in Spanish even though sex can refer to the sexual act, too. Gender was something that belong to grammar and even inanimate objects have a gender. For instance, a table is feminine in Spanish, and desk is masculine.

The use of the Spanish word for gender to talk about sex roles and stereotypes or how someone "identify as" is more recent development and it's something that Spanish speakers copied from the English language. So, now for example, in Argentina we're in this mess where someone's "gender identity" must be respected and anyone can legally "change" their sex (the actual word used in our documents). And now people who say they are "non binary" can put an X in their documents, too... And people talk about violencia de género (gender based violence), which makes it sound like sexism and misogyny is based in hate of feminity. Especially when a male who claims to be a "woman" can be considered a victim of feminicide...

I hate in general how many Spanish speakers parrot the same talking points that English speaking trans activists, even the ones that makes even less sense in Spanish (e.g. "non binary" people). I don't like how many people in Argentina and in other Latin America countries put the so the developed countries on a pedestal. Usually, the lefty parties are the one that speak out against the latter, but now even they support transgenderism. And I just want to scream because it's unbeliable how they are ignoring the obvious colonization.

And then you have the Catholic Church who talks about ideología de género (gender ideology), except they include in it many different things like for example sex self-ID, "medical transition", gay marriage, abortion, sex ed at school, and laws about violence against women (apparently, those laws are sexist againt men because there is not a male equivalent for feminicide...). They are (or at least pretend to be) unable to see a conflict of interest among the different groups who advocate for such things.

So, yes, I don't like word gender and learning it was their newer meanings were first associated with guys like Money and Stoller doesn't help. Those are my personal reasons. Obviously, many of them cannot be applied to native English speakers. Althought from what I've seen there is plenty of confusion with the word "gender" in the English language, too, and trans activists have taken full advantage of it.

[–]SnowAssMan 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

English isn't Spanish. Using "gender" in linguistic contexts exclusively makes sense in Spanish. But neither of us are speaking in, or about Spanish. In English gender is a synonym for sex. The only one who seems to disagree is Stoller & transgenderists & feminists are his biggest allies (the only difference between either group being differing re-definitions of gender). Maybe feminists should stop being his biggest ally & reject his re-definition of gender, instead of rejecting the term itself, since doing the latter would only further cement the re-definition of gender.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You asked me why I didn't like the word and I replied you. I'm a native Spanish speaker, of course my first language was going to be in the answer. And I know English and Spanish are not the same. Why else do you think I say many of my reason cannot be applied to native English speakers.

[–]SnowAssMan 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I'm aware of what reasons don't apply in an English-speaking context. I'm still waiting for your reasons that do apply.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Then reread my other comments in this or other posts when I talk about how TRA takes advantage over the confusion with gender. I'm not going to repeat myself when you ignored what I said the first time around. You'll do the same thing again.

[–]SnowAssMan 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

TRAs have indeed been taking advantage of feminism's confusing contradiction whenever the claim "sex & gender are not the same", only to use "sex-roles" & "gender-roles" synonymously, thereby proving that sex & gender are synonyms.

Since the general public & most of academia still use gender as a synonym for sex, which is what it always was, maybe feminists could join in with that crowd, instead of sticking rigidly to the gender/sex division that caused the problem to begin with & whose continued support is only making it worse, even though they aren't even consistent with it (the roles example).

You refusal to use gender as a synonym for sex is counter-productive, as has been demonstrated for decades now. There is no evidence to suggest that treating sex & gender as synonyms would have any negative results.