About the origins of the word "gender"

submitted by BiologyIsReal from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]SnowAssMan 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

but I think you may still working on the expecting women do as you say part

Most TRAs are female, so we're all guilty of that. Identity politics always backfires, so quit employing it; or should that be: deploying it?

Why would I want to use their terminology?

Well, for the same reasons feminists have been: to describe femininity & masculinity. Remember, gender & gender identity are not the same thing & core-gender identity & cross-gender identity aren't the same thing either. As far as I remember Stoller's work was on people with DSDs & he viewed transsexualism as a type of DSD. You won't find any commonalities between his work & modern day transgenderism.

But anyway, I don't think using Stoller's terminology is helpful, since no one of consequence knows that definition of gender anymore (masculinity & femininity). The only people who used it were feminist theorists & they've stopped now. All feminists seem to have adopted the transgenderist definition, including you & all the other GC feminists.

Why would you sooner adopt the transgenderist definition of gender (self-declaration), instead of the colloquial one (male & female)?

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Most TRAs are female, so we're all guilty of that. Identity politics always backfires, so quit employing it; or should that be: deploying it?

Yes, identity politics is non-sense. But, my comment was not intended as a counterargument. I was pointing out how you act like an authoritative voice who is more informed than women and know exactly what women must do to solve the "trans" issues despite that you have no skin in the game. And men acting like feminists leaders usually ends up badly for women.

Well, for the same reasons feminists have been: to describe femininity & masculinity. Remember, gender & gender identity are not the same thing & core-gender identity & cross-gender identity aren't the same thing either. As far as I remember Stoller's work was on people with DSDs & he viewed transsexualism as a type of DSD. You won't find any commonalities between his work & modern day transgenderism.

His work wasn't only about people with DSDs, though. This article shows that, and it's written by one of his colleagues, so you cannot say the author is no familiar with Stoller's work. He approved of "sex changes" for "true transsexuals", even if only because he believed they were untreatable in any other way by that point.

Likely, Stoller would be viewed as an heretic by TRA if his were alive today, but I never said his view were exactly like the ones from current trans activists. I said TRA's views on "gender" are closer to Stoller's ideas than those of feminists. What you're acknowledging is that Stoller viewed deviance from sex stereotypes as a disorder. When treating boys with a cross-sex identification, he didn't just to get them to accept their sex, he tried to turn them into "masculine" boys. How is that comparable with feminist ideas?

But anyway, I don't think using Stoller's terminology is helpful, since no one of consequence knows that definition of gender anymore (masculinity & femininity). The only people who used it were feminist theorists & they've stopped now. All feminists seem to have adopted the transgenderist definition, including you & all the other GC feminists.

Why would you sooner adopt the transgenderist definition of gender (self-declaration), instead of the colloquial one (male & female)?

I haven't adopted their definitions. I only use them when discussing them.

[–]SnowAssMan 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

And men acting like feminists leaders usually ends up badly for women

Unlike women leaders, right? I can't help being correct, or male.

I said TRA's views on "gender" are closer to Stoller's ideas than those of feminists

Demonstrably false. Millett & Dworkin quote him verbatim, using his definition of gender as the cornerstone of their understanding of it, without a smidgen of caveat or disagreement. Our own MT will quite gladly tell you she thinks gender is masculinity & femininity, not male & female – the otherwise extinct Stoller definition, unlike modern transgenderism.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Unlike women leaders, right? I can't help being correct, or male.

Do I really have to explain this to you? Should employers be leading unions? Should developed countries lead the development of developing countries? Don't you see the obvious conflict of interests and power imbalance? Yes, men trying to be femist leaders is bad news for women. "Best" case scenario they are completely clueless, but they have too big of a ego to accept they may be wrong or listen to women, or they want to show off how much of a "nice guy" they are in order to get laid. Worst case scenario, they want to undermine feminism for their own benefit: see every single man who advocates for transgenderism and sex poisitive stuff.

Demonstrably false. Millett & Dworkin quote him verbatim, using his definition of gender as the cornerstone of their understanding of it, without a smidgen of caveat or disagreement. Our own MT will quite gladly tell you she thinks gender is masculinity & femininity, not male & female – the otherwise extinct Stoller definition, unlike modern transgenderism.

I'm sure she could tell us herself if she wanted to.

[–]SnowAssMan 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Women acting like feminist leaders "usually ends up badly for women" too. Patriarchy is an ideology, not a demographic. Apparently I'm the only one here who even bothers to read feminist works. I'm obviously more familiar with feminist theory than you are, so all you've got left to fall back on is "you Tarzan, me Jane": identity politics.

I'm sure she could tell us herself if she wanted to.

She already has, many times.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

If you're such an expert, then how do you not understand the problem with male "feminists"? We don't live in an egalitarian utopia. Women and men are not in equal terms in society and men, as a class, are not interested in changing that reality. In fact, they are doing their best to undermine any progress made by women. Some are unapolegetic about their intentions, others hide behind the feminist label to destroy feminism from the inside. Again, should unions be leaded by the employers? Should developing countries do whathever the developed countries say we should do, despite how many times we have been screwed over doing exactly that?

[–]SnowAssMan 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Why don't you see a problem with female "feminists" who aren't theorists, aren't activists & have never even read any feminist theory in their life & never will? The fact that a man is more familiar with feminism than you are is an inconvenience for you, but easily rectified by you, so maybe quit blaming my biology for your own self-inflicted shortcomings. Nothing about my biology is preventing you from doing a spot of reading. The fact that the two of us use this forum proves that neither of our views are representatives of our respective sexes.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Cool story, dude. Now, why don't you apply all that theory into practice? I've a problem with your attitude, not your biology. Though, it must be said your attitude is pretty typical of your sex. Why do you think many feminists make fun of male "feminists"? Didn't you like studying social trends?

And I hope you don't forget to denounce any employer exclusionary union for discrimination.

[–]SnowAssMan 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

You're not even able to articulate what it is about my "attitude" you dislike, so I'm not obliged to entertain the spurious criticism. Come back when you've read some feminist theory, until then I'll always be more of a feminist than you.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

You're not even able to articulate what it is about my "attitude" you dislike, so I'm not obliged to entertain the spurious criticism.

I'm not sure what part of you acting like you were the only expert on feminism who must tell all the silly women what they have to do to fight back trans activists was not clear.

Come back when you've read some feminist theory, until then I'll always be more of a feminist than you.

I wasn't aware we were in a competence. Whatever, theory is useless if you don't put it into practice. I'll believe you when you are able to acept that a woman disagrees with you.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most TRAs are female

Is this true? Evidence?