About the origins of the word "gender"

submitted by BiologyIsReal from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Op didn’t literally say ‘feminists should…’ and then carry on like a pork chop because feminists didn’t agree with them.

Can you like, go be wrong and melodramatic at someone else now please. Seriously you are behaving exactly like masks who you have berated for the same behaviour.

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (21 children)

She is saying English-speaking feminists should. There are feminists who agree with me & others who don't. It's called diversity of opinion.

I've berated everyone for being unable to provide evidence to support their claims. I gave you link to a kids' book on sex education, demonstrating the lack of the word sex to mean what most here insist it means (a collective term for males & females). Not that I expect you to recognise evidence when you're shown it. Got a counter example? Thought not.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Lol, I looked up the history of the word and I said whatI think about it. I think it's a losing strategy to say gender instead of sex, but I don't care to police the language of English speaking feminists. This is not my first language, anyway and it's not on me to decide on the issue. I care more about Spanish speakers not blindly follow the lead of English ones.

You're the only one telling us what words we should use despite not being GC.

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I clearly have GC reasons for wanting to take "gender" back, so what exactly makes me "not GC"?

Your OP downplayed the role feminism has had in mainstreaming the word "gender". And over-emphasised John Money's importance. It also misrepresented Stoller & Money as sharing the same ideology as modern transgenderism, when clearly modern post-structuralist choice-feminism is the only other group who share transgenderist beliefs. I've pointed out some of the other discrepancies in your findings in my first comment. But in every reply you keep going back to your initial views.

All I'm suggesting is that feminists quit capitulating to transgenderism, which is a sentiment expressed by every GC user here. One such capitulation is being complicit in transgenderism's appropriation of the word "gender", & the term "gender identity". Some GC feminists even say "trans-woman" – that too is a capitulation. Saying "biologically female" instead of just "female" is yet another example of feminist capitulation, etc.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

How are you GC? Just disagreeing with TRAs doens't make you one, IMO. You say you want to abolish sex stereotypes, but I think you may still working on the expecting women do as you say part.

My intend was mainly to highlight the origins of the term. Yes, it was feminists who popularized the term, but it was John Money and Robert Stoller (and their collegues) who started with the business of differentiating between sex and gender. Neither of them was a feminist and, in fact, both of them were involved in the early history of transsexualism. They both believed in strict sex roles and stereotypes, and in "sex change surgeries". Why would I want to use their terminology?

[–]SnowAssMan 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

but I think you may still working on the expecting women do as you say part

Most TRAs are female, so we're all guilty of that. Identity politics always backfires, so quit employing it; or should that be: deploying it?

Why would I want to use their terminology?

Well, for the same reasons feminists have been: to describe femininity & masculinity. Remember, gender & gender identity are not the same thing & core-gender identity & cross-gender identity aren't the same thing either. As far as I remember Stoller's work was on people with DSDs & he viewed transsexualism as a type of DSD. You won't find any commonalities between his work & modern day transgenderism.

But anyway, I don't think using Stoller's terminology is helpful, since no one of consequence knows that definition of gender anymore (masculinity & femininity). The only people who used it were feminist theorists & they've stopped now. All feminists seem to have adopted the transgenderist definition, including you & all the other GC feminists.

Why would you sooner adopt the transgenderist definition of gender (self-declaration), instead of the colloquial one (male & female)?

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Most TRAs are female, so we're all guilty of that. Identity politics always backfires, so quit employing it; or should that be: deploying it?

Yes, identity politics is non-sense. But, my comment was not intended as a counterargument. I was pointing out how you act like an authoritative voice who is more informed than women and know exactly what women must do to solve the "trans" issues despite that you have no skin in the game. And men acting like feminists leaders usually ends up badly for women.

Well, for the same reasons feminists have been: to describe femininity & masculinity. Remember, gender & gender identity are not the same thing & core-gender identity & cross-gender identity aren't the same thing either. As far as I remember Stoller's work was on people with DSDs & he viewed transsexualism as a type of DSD. You won't find any commonalities between his work & modern day transgenderism.

His work wasn't only about people with DSDs, though. This article shows that, and it's written by one of his colleagues, so you cannot say the author is no familiar with Stoller's work. He approved of "sex changes" for "true transsexuals", even if only because he believed they were untreatable in any other way by that point.

Likely, Stoller would be viewed as an heretic by TRA if his were alive today, but I never said his view were exactly like the ones from current trans activists. I said TRA's views on "gender" are closer to Stoller's ideas than those of feminists. What you're acknowledging is that Stoller viewed deviance from sex stereotypes as a disorder. When treating boys with a cross-sex identification, he didn't just to get them to accept their sex, he tried to turn them into "masculine" boys. How is that comparable with feminist ideas?

But anyway, I don't think using Stoller's terminology is helpful, since no one of consequence knows that definition of gender anymore (masculinity & femininity). The only people who used it were feminist theorists & they've stopped now. All feminists seem to have adopted the transgenderist definition, including you & all the other GC feminists.

Why would you sooner adopt the transgenderist definition of gender (self-declaration), instead of the colloquial one (male & female)?

I haven't adopted their definitions. I only use them when discussing them.

[–]SnowAssMan 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

And men acting like feminists leaders usually ends up badly for women

Unlike women leaders, right? I can't help being correct, or male.

I said TRA's views on "gender" are closer to Stoller's ideas than those of feminists

Demonstrably false. Millett & Dworkin quote him verbatim, using his definition of gender as the cornerstone of their understanding of it, without a smidgen of caveat or disagreement. Our own MT will quite gladly tell you she thinks gender is masculinity & femininity, not male & female – the otherwise extinct Stoller definition, unlike modern transgenderism.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Unlike women leaders, right? I can't help being correct, or male.

Do I really have to explain this to you? Should employers be leading unions? Should developed countries lead the development of developing countries? Don't you see the obvious conflict of interests and power imbalance? Yes, men trying to be femist leaders is bad news for women. "Best" case scenario they are completely clueless, but they have too big of a ego to accept they may be wrong or listen to women, or they want to show off how much of a "nice guy" they are in order to get laid. Worst case scenario, they want to undermine feminism for their own benefit: see every single man who advocates for transgenderism and sex poisitive stuff.

Demonstrably false. Millett & Dworkin quote him verbatim, using his definition of gender as the cornerstone of their understanding of it, without a smidgen of caveat or disagreement. Our own MT will quite gladly tell you she thinks gender is masculinity & femininity, not male & female – the otherwise extinct Stoller definition, unlike modern transgenderism.

I'm sure she could tell us herself if she wanted to.

[–]SnowAssMan 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Women acting like feminist leaders "usually ends up badly for women" too. Patriarchy is an ideology, not a demographic. Apparently I'm the only one here who even bothers to read feminist works. I'm obviously more familiar with feminist theory than you are, so all you've got left to fall back on is "you Tarzan, me Jane": identity politics.

I'm sure she could tell us herself if she wanted to.

She already has, many times.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most TRAs are female

Is this true? Evidence?