About the origins of the word "gender"

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

If your child draws a penis at school, you'll probably get a phone call. If you child just draws a boy, no such call will happen. What do you think the nature of the phone call might be? Suggesting that a penis is obscene is as ridiculous as suggesting that a boy is obscene, right?

I said nothing about drawing penises... So, should I take this as you saying that children shouldn't be taught the proper for body parts because they are obscene? When they should learn the proper names? At 18 years old alongside the word sex? Are you ever going to tell me what you were taught at biology class?

You have my permission to quit patronising me now.

Look who talks about being patronizing...

You help erase it as a concept every time you refer to it as "sex".

So, I every time I use the word sex I help to erase the concept of sex... That doens't make any sense.

Gender isn't their term, remember? You insist it only means masculinity & femininity & has no other meaning.

Yeah, sure. They talk about gender all day, but it's not ther term. Read the OP again, feminists weren't the ones who started talking about gender.

If German only had neuter, would linguists say it only has one gender, or would they say it's not a gendered language? Seeing as there are no languages with only one gender, but there are languages that are not gendered, you must already know the answer to that one.

You're so keen on proving me wrong that you keep saying even more ridiculous things. It's called neuter gender because it's an aditional gender besides the masculine and feminine. Maybe try studying a bit of grammar.

https://bostonlanguage.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/gender-in-languages-across-the-world/

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Grammatical_gender

Irrelevant tho. I never said they were tho. Pay attention tho. Modern transgenderism's view of gender isn't consistent with Butler & Stoller. Conversely, Butler & Stoller's definitions are perfectly concordant with feminism's. If you think the reverse is true, please expound.

So, Butler and Stoller are not feminists, but their ideas about gender are perfectly concordant with feminism. You're not even trying to make a coherent argument anymore, dude.

[–]SnowAssMan 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

Sex is considered obscene, hence why it'll never be shown early in the morning on Nick Jr. You really needed that explained to you?

You can say sex as often & as loudly as you like, all you'll be saying is sexual intercourse, like a mother bird feeding a brood parasite.

So gender doesn't mean masculinity or femininity either now, it just means whatever transgenderists say bc they use it all the time? Transgenderists weren't the ones who started talking about gender either, your point?

Yeah, & neutering your dog is giving it a sex change.

Do you think gender means masculinity & femininity? Then you agree with Stoller & Butler. According to your logic you're not a feminist anymore by virtue of the aforementioned. Maybe read their books first, instead of making assumptions about what they wrote.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sex is considered obscene, hence why it'll never be shown early in the morning on Nick Jr. You really needed that explained to you?

Sex is considered obscene by you, and to you. Obscene means offensive, disgusting, repugnant, an affront to moral decency. Most people don't agree with you that sex is obscene. Sex, or rather material that is sexually explicit, is inappropriate for children. Inappropriate for children is not the same as obscene.

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Same difference.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Sex is considered obscene, hence why it'll never be shown early in the morning on Nick Jr. You really needed that explained to you?

I wasn't talking about sexual relationships, but the word sex with the meaning of whether someone is male or female. Are you going to ever answer me what you were taught at biology class? Are you saying young students never heard of things like sex hormones and sex chromosomes at school in the English speaking world? Are they only taught about "gender hormones" and "gender chromosomes" instead? Are you saying young students never check the dictionary? The Oxford, Cambridge and Collins dictionaries list the state of being male or female as the first meaning for sex:

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/sex_1?q=sex

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sex

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/sex

Do you think gender means masculinity & femininity? Then you agree with Stoller & Butler. According to your logic you're not a feminist anymore by virtue of the aforementioned. Maybe read their books first, instead of making assumptions about what they wrote.

The word gender is used with the following meanings: (1) a grammatical category, (2) a euphemism for sex, (3) the different social norms and steretypes applied to women and men that put women below men, (4) short for "gender identity". The average person who knows little of feminis or transgenderism it's probably aware only of the two first meanings. Transactivists switch between meaning #2 and #4 depending on what is more convenient for them at the moment.

Personally, I use the meaning #1 and avoid the word when talking about sexism and misogyny. How am I agreeing with Butler or Stoller?

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Teens eventually learn about sexual intercourse in & outside school. That's their introduction to the word 'sex'.

The OED is the authority (for lack of a better word) on the English language.

Feminist theorists use the word "gender" (not referring to grammar), in the same way that Stoller & Butler do, so you're unusual if you only use it to refer to grammatical gender – at least you would be, if that was actually the case. You use the word 'gender' with the transgenderist definition attached (like most choice-feminists & GC feminists, bc most GC feminists are former choice-feminists). The difference is, you, like all GC feminists, disagree with it's legitimacy. However, simply by accepting the trans re-definition of 'gender' to mean APG RPG, you are compromising your own position & indirectly legitimising your opponents' in a fundamental way.

If only you just used gender in the grammatical sense, exclusively. That would be an improvement. Alas!

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Teens eventually learn about sexual intercourse in & outside school. That's their introduction to the word 'sex'.

So, do teens not learn about sex hormones or sex chromosomes at shool? Or do they learn instead of "gender hormones" or "gender chromosomes"?

The OED is the authority (for lack of a better word) on the English language.

And the Oxford Dictionary list the state of being male or female as the first meaning for sex. What do you have to say about it?

I've addressed your other points in my other replies.

[–]SnowAssMan 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Again, the context is sex education. Teens are taught about the sex organs i.e. the organs for sexual reproduction. They learn about how sex hormones are kicked into gear by puberty to help develop the sex organs in order for you to be able to sexually procreate. To the English-speaker's ear "sex hormones" sounds like "sexual hormones", not "male & female hormones". That's why you'll hear so many English speaking GC feminists say "biological sex" instead of just "sex". Notice how the most frequently used terms with "sex" in them: "sex sells" "sex symbols" "sex appeal" etc. always refer to sexuality rather than the state of being male or female. Use Google search predictions. Type in "sex a..." then "sex b...". Go through the alphabet & you'll notice that 99% of the time "sex" refers to sexual related topics. This shouldn't surprise anyone. I can only assume that any surprise on your part would be due to not being a native speaker.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Sex education only? Are you saying they don't study any biology? Don't they learn any about sex chromosomes? Or do they interpret it as "sexual chromosomes"?

I can only assume that any surprise on your part would be due to not being a native speaker.

Lol I'm sure there are things I don't get for not being a native speaker. The word sex it's not one of them. But if you want to play this card, let's not forget there are at least two English native speakers in this sub who disagree with you on this.

[–]SnowAssMan 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Teens don't learn about anything with the term "sex" in it outside of sex education.

Did the Google results for "sex...a/b/c/d etc." surprise you in their focus on sexuality, or not?

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So, do teens not learn that humans have 46 chromosomes: 44 autosomes and 2 sex chromosomes? Do they not learn that females are XX and males are XY? Do they not learn the inheritance of certain traits is linked to sex? Do they not learn, for example, that daltonism is more prevalent in males?

Are you willing to claim biology educaction for teens at English speaking countries is sub-standard before admiting you may be wrong?

[–]SnowAssMan 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So, do teens not learn that humans have 46 chromosomes: 44 autosomes and 2 sex chromosomes? Do they not learn that females are XX and males are XY? Do they not learn the inheritance of certain traits is linked to sex? Do they not learn, for example, that daltonism is more prevalent in males?

WTF? Of course not. That's advanced biology. You won't learn that unless you study biology at university, or maybe medicine at A-level.