About the origins of the word "gender"

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (68 children)

You think it’s obscene to know the word sex?

Quit gaslighting me, mate. It's not me who thinks it, it's every English-speaker who does. Do a Google Image search of sex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

Since you like pictures: an image search of "sex determination," "sex chickens," "sexing chickens" will show that the word "sex" is widely seen, and used, to mean male and female too.

Most people, including children, are capable of grasping that the same word can have multiple meanings and do not see the word "sex" as obscene. You seem to think that your own narrow - and dare I say peculiar - view is held by "every English speaker," but I don't believe this to be the case.

Looking into the etymology of the word "sex," it seems "sex" has been used to mean the "quality of being male or female" since the 14th century. But the use of "sex" to mean one specific sex act, aka "sexual intercourse," is a much more recent development, one that only emerged in the early 20th century. Sex to mean male/female has been in use for 500-600 or more years. To mean PIV intercourse, a little more than 100 years. But when people started using "sex" to mean PIV sexual intercourse, this created an additional meaning for the word that went alongside the more traditional meaning. It didn't supplant the traditional meaning the way you claim, and the way you wish.

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

But the use of "sex" to mean one specific sex act, aka "sexual intercourse," is a much more recent development, one that only emerged in the early 20th century.

Anyone who lived earlier than that is dead now lol.

It didn't supplant the traditional meaning

Didn't it? Let me just check again: sex. Seems you're still wrong.

I'm still waiting for the reason to use "sex" instead of "gender" to refer to male & female. All I'm getting so far is "bc it's a dead tradition that has no chance of being resurrected, but let's keep pretending it's just as popular as ever, while also admitting it's been replaced".

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

I'm still waiting for the reason to use "sex" instead of "gender" to refer to male & female. All I'm getting so far is "bc it's a dead tradition that has no chance of being resurrected, but let's keep pretending it's just as popular as ever, while also admitting it's been replaced".

Crack a biology book. Or since pictures is more your speed, do a google image search of "biological sex."

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

If the "biological" part is so integral, maybe stop arguing about the meaning of "sex" on its own. How would a biology book prove your point? The only time it would use the word 'sex' would be to refer to intercourse or organs, not males &/or females.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How would a biology book prove your point? The only time it would use the word 'sex' would be to refer to intercourse or organs, not males &/or females.

Wut? You think the fact that plants and animals are male and female isn't discussed in biology books? Clearly you've never looked at a biology book.

Also, sex and reproductive organs are not the only parts of the human body that are sexed. Every nucleated cell is sexed. There are thousands of differences in the anatomy and physiology of human males and females.

When doing an online search, adding the "biological" to the word sex tells the search engine which meaning of the word is being referred to.

No one is denying that "sex" has the meaning you say it has. We are disagreeing with your contention that this is the only meaning the word has.

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

All you have to do to prove me wrong is post an excerpt from a biology book demonstrating what you're talking about.

Notice how you don't have to add anything to the word 'sex' for the search engine to know that you're talking about sexual intercourse.

Both gender & sex have two different meanings, but there is a hierarchy of meaning, practically no one even knows gender's second meaning (masculinity & femininity). Type sex into the news tab on Google. Why bother holding onto the lesser known meanings, when it only makes feminist discourse less accessible & has zero benefits?

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

As someone with a background in the life sciences, I can tell you biology and medicine literature do use the word sex to mean the biological category.

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

But everyone else hasn't got that background. What sort of biology books do you think regular people are reading, especially children & teens? Do you think "sex" ever gets a mention outside reproduction contexts? It's just not practical to insist everyone use more academic language when referring to everyday things in informal discussions.

Again, there aren't even any drawbacks to people exclusively understanding gender to mean male & female & sex to mean intercourse. Using this terminology wasn't the catalyst to the transgender craze, quite the reverse. Gender has been a synonym for sex from the very start, it's only recently that regular people are saying "sex & gender are not the same thing" & it's thanks to transgenderism. No idea why GC feminists went along with it.

Why relegate gender to pointlessly mean masculinity & femininity? It's not catching on. Why try to share the word "sex" with the far more popular & stigmatised concept of sexual intercourse? It's impractical & overly formal & easily censored from children. There are only drawbacks. It also legitimises transgenderism more, bc you're handing them "gender". It's called "gender critical feminism" & it's critical of transgenderism – thereby legitimising "gender" as meaning gender-swap desire + role-play. It's simply counter-productive.

On top of that, we've all heard men say that they are "biologically female", right? So what has holding onto "sex" got GC feminism? Relinquishing "gender" was just the first step to inching single-sex terms out of the conversion altogether. It's like one of those Native American treaties with the US, & feminists are playing the part of the Native Americans.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

understanding gender to mean male & female & sex to mean intercourse.

Please for the umpteenth time stop saying sex=intercourse, meaning penetration with a penis. Saying all sex involves penetration is a male-centric, penis-focused POV. It's homophobic particularly against lesbians, and ignores that even amongst heterosexuals and gay guys not all sex does or has to involve penetration!

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You mean like oral? That's called 'oral sex'. It's not penis-focused or male-centric, it's reproduction-focused, just like the word itself is: sex. It's a type of reproduction: sexual reproduction. Male & female describe the reproductive roles within a species that reproduces sexually. You could broaden the definition of sex to include other forms of erotic activities, making it orgasm-focused, maybe. But wouldn't re-purposing the word that describes reproduction, to also refer to homosexual erotic activities itself be heteronormative?

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Oral sex is still a kind of sex. Some oral sex is indeed penis-focused. Whereas you keep insisting that sex exclusively means PIV intercourse.

You are taking a very narrow view of what reproduction in higher organisms means and requires to be successful. Human sex has evolved to have many more purposes other than fertilization of ova by sperm. Such as pleasure, intimacy and pair-bonding.

The aim of reproduction is the perpetuation and continued adaptation of species. There's a lot more to the perpetuation of the species Homo sapiens than conception alone; conception is just the starting point. The ancillary functions that human sex has evolved to have - such as intimacy, pair bonding, the release of oxytocin in parties of both sexes, and up-close-and-personal familiarity with a body (or bodies) other than one's own - serve purposes that can help both individual organisms and the group survive. After all, the species Homo sapiens only remains in existence and keeps adapting when fertilized human eggs result in newborn babies, and babies live long enough to reproduce themselves and raise their own offspring to maturity.

Most human sex acts are actually not done for the purpose of conception. Indeed, conception is something that most people very much don't want to happen in the vast majority of sexual encounters that humans engage in. Which is why people who have sex with members of the opposite sex typically take measures to avoid conception. This is true even in most acts of PIV intercourse. Even amongst those who have or want children, most persons who engage in PIV sexual intercourse are not seeking for conception to occur each and every time. But having conception-free sex with another person still can serve ancillary functions - closeness, caring, pleasure, relaxation, emotional release, emotional intensity - that assist in the survival and perpetuation of the species and individuals involved.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I think you're misunderstanding my position: I avoid saying gender outside of grammar.

It's called "gender critical feminism" & it's critical of transgenderism – thereby legitimising "gender" as meaning gender-swap desire + role-play. It's simply counter-productive.

Gender critical means being critical of all sex sterotypes, not only transgenderism. To be honest saying gender critical feminist is redundant, imo. I guess it was coined because some "feminists" started enforcing sex sterotypes. It's like socialists calling themselves capitalism critical socialists because some "socialists" started talking about the wonders of the free market.

On top of that, we've all heard men say that they are "biologically female", right? So what has holding onto "sex" got GC feminism? Relinquishing "gender" was just the first step to inching single-sex terms out of the conversion altogether. It's like one of those Native American treaties with the US, & feminists are playing the part of the Native Americans.

John Money, Robert Stoller and their colleagues were the ones who started differentiating between sex and gender. If you think those guys were any sort of feminists, then back up your claims. It shouldn't be difficult seeing as you're so familiar with their work. Go ahead, Snow, I'm all ears about what those guys did for women's rights.

[–]SnowAssMan 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

You: "I avoid saying gender outside of grammar". Also you: "Gender critical means being critical of all sex stereotypes"

I'm all ears about what those guys did for women's rights

...um, but I never said Stoller was a feminist, so why would I defend that random statement? In any case it makes no difference either way. You're the one using his definition: sex-stereotypes. You have this idea that you disagree with him & that I agree with him – when it's the other way 'round. He thinks gender means sex-stereotypes & so do you, I think we should reject that definition in favour of the original/colloquial one: synonym for biological sex. Confusingly, you also sometimes use the transgenderist definition of gender.

Gender became synonymous with biological sex again after the end of the 2nd wave. Transgenderism resurrected the differentiation, but changed the definition of gender. So maybe stop blaming Stoller & the word "gender"? Right now there is a battle over the word gender going on & for some reason GC feminists are on the transgenderist side. They shake their fists at Stoller & transgenderism, but call themselves "gender critical" thereby using either Stoller's & transgenderism's definition of gender depending on the context.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

You: "I avoid saying gender outside of grammar". Also you: "Gender critical means being critical of all sex stereotypes"

You're unbeliable... I was just repeating the explanation that I've heard for the name of the subs. This was needed because you thought the name was due only to transgenderims. There are plenty of women who, evidently, find the term useful. I'm just not among them.

...um, but I never said Stoller was a feminist, so why would I defend that random statement?

You said that his ideas on "gender" were perfectly concondart with feminism. You also said feminists that femists should reclaim the words "gender" and "gender identity" despite the fact those terms didn't come from feminists in the first place, that was on Money and Stoller. So, why is so imprtant to you that I use these words, other than your reluctance of anyone suing the word sex?

You have this idea that you disagree with him & that I agree with him – when it's the other way 'round. He thinks gender means sex-stereotypes & so do you, I do not agree with Stoller at all. He believed in strict sex stereotypes and "true transsexuals", and found violence against women desirable.

I think we should reject that definition in favour of the original/colloquial one: synonym for biological sex.

You keep saying "gender" instead of "sex". I won't.

Confusingly, you also sometimes use the transgenderist definition of gender.

What are you talkiing about? The only time I use their terms is for debating them.

Gender became synonymous with biological sex again after the end of the 2nd wave. Transgenderism resurrected the differentiation, but changed the definition of gender. So maybe stop blaming Stoller & the word "gender"? Right now there is a battle over the word gender going on & for some reason GC feminists are on the transgenderist side.

Transgenderism didn't come from nowhere, but it's a evolution from transsexualism. And it turns out Stoller was involved in the early days of the latter. I place the original blame of what is happening today in the doctors who decided to enable the fantasies of men who claimed to be "women" and the people who allowed men who took hormones and undergone surgeries to resemble women to legally "change" their sex. I don't think the word "gender" has all the blame, but there is no doubt, imo, trans activists took full advantage of it.

They shake their fists at Stoller & transgenderism, but call themselves "gender critical" thereby using either Stoller's & transgenderism's definition of gender depending on the context.

I did not choose this name and I became mod of this sub by chance. I only use "GC" for convenience when describing the position of posters here.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

Lmao I’m not gaslighting you, cut the melodrama.

Google images is not the population of my country, or used to define words to English speaking people across the planet, so I’m gonna keep seeing how you are wrong.

Gaslighting..lmao that’s a new one for women not agreeing with your directions for feminism.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (37 children)

I guess I run Google, right?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

No and that wasn’t implied. Seems like you are taking disagreement with you very personally and are frankly behaving most like masks right now.

You think google, which caches millions and millions of porn sites, dictates what sex means despite others having very clearly explained how you are incorrect? Like, it’s fine that you add connotations to the word sex but it’s just not as meaningful to others. What you attach to a word is not universal.

Do you have anything worthwhile to add except snark and silly accusations of emotional abuse against you?

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

None of the results are porn sites though. The denotation of the word 'sex' is sexual intercourse though. Google results back up my claim. If you're going to patronisingly poo-poo it, then I'd like to see some evidence to the contrary.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

I’m not searching something I know will show me something I don’t care to see. The point so, so, obviously, is that google images is not how anybody defines words.

It’s a ridiculous argument that requires us to both be disingenuous about how people define words.

It’s completely on you if you get offended by a kid saying something like ‘mum found out the sex of the baby! I’m gonna have a sister!’ or are so unable to discern context that you think they are talking about intercourse.

You can huff and puff and tell feminists that they need to talk how you want them to till the cows come home but it’s isn’t going to make you correct or your repeated point any more convincing.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

You're repeating yourself. I'm still waiting for counter-evidence from you.

"mum found out the sex of the baby! I’m gonna have a sister!’ – no child has ever, or will ever say that. Prove otherwise. There are plenty of kids' shows & books that cover that subject. So go find an example, instead of pulling it out of your arse.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

I’m waiting for you to prove everyone else has the exact same hang up you have. You think you can just say that no child would ever say something super common but I gotta give you a study or a thesis?

You’re so full of shit lol

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

I'm not surprised you consider a kids' show or book to be a study or thesis.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

You’re the one saying kids shows and books prove that no child could ever say the words ‘my mum found out the sex of her baby’ and that google images are how everyone who speaks English thinks sex only ever means intercourse.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S,M] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You better watch your language if you don't want to be banned for the rest of the week.