About the origins of the word "gender"

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

Bc I don't want to be speaking a language that is hard to understand & vulgar/not child appropriate. As long as I have been alive "gender" has referred to the male & female sexes, while "sex" to sexual intercourse. It isn't until adulthood that people can recognise that gender can also refer to femininity & that sex can refer to being female. So that's a huge demographic that I'd be alienating if I used the lesser known definitions of those two words, while ignoring the far more frequent ones. No one nowadays is going to want to hear or say "sex" & "baby" in the same sentence, when they can say, & have been saying, "gender" instead.

Snow, your squeamishness about the word "sex" is your issue. Please don't project your own personal discomfort with it on to everyone else and presume it represents the prevailing POV.

I don't know how long you've been alive, by since you cited your lived experience to back up your position, I'll add mine too: all my life since going back to my earliest memories more than 60 years ago I've used the word sex to mean both the repro category and the set of intimate acts/behaviors humans and other organisms engage in. Everyone I know has done the same - and we're all okay, and not at all confused.

Your bizarre contention, made in another post below, that the word sex="obscenity" gives the impression that you were raised in a very puritanical community with a peculiar view on this. I'd say it sounds like you've time-traveled here from the Victorian era, but that would be inaccurate and unfair because even the fussy Victorians had no problem using the word sex to mean both a set of intimate behaviors that sexually-reproducing organisms engage in, and the two sex classes, male and female. In fact, one of the most important, influential books of the Victorian era that is still well known today has sex in its title: The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex by Charles Darwin, published in 1871.

As to your claim that

It isn't until adulthood that people can recognise ... that sex can refer to being female.

WTF?

No one nowadays is going to want to hear or say "sex" & "baby" in the same sentence, when they can say, & have been saying, "gender" instead.

Even today when it's become so common to use "gender" to mean "sex," tons of people - especially pregnant women, couples TTC, parents of young babies, midwives, pediatricians and others involved in health care - have no problem hearing, saying or reading "sex" and "baby" in the same sentence, and do so all the time. In fact, people customarily use these words not just in same sentence, but in close succession as in the phrase "sex of baby" and even back to back when speaking of a "baby's sex." Some results I got when I googled those phrases:

https://www.livescience.com/15475-blood-test-baby-sex-pregnancy.html

https://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnancy/predicting-sex-of-baby

https://www.verywellfamily.com/babys-sex-overview-4581826

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/when-can-you-find-out-the-sex-of-a-baby

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/boy-or-girl-can-you-choose-your-babys-sex/

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/does-babys-heart-rate-reveal-their-sex/

https://www.webmd.com/baby/features/predicting-your-babys-sex#1

https://www.webmd.com/baby/what-to-know-ultrasound-babys-sex#1

https://www.healthline.com/health/pregnancy/when-can-you-find-out-sex-of-baby

https://www.sharecare.com/health/fetal-development-basics-pregnancy/determining-sex-of-a-baby

https://www.babycenter.com/pregnancy/health-and-safety/when-and-how-can-i-find-out-my-babys-sex_20004784

https://www.parents.com/pregnancy/my-baby/gender-prediction/qa-how-soon-can-you-find-out-babys-sex/

https://www.verywellfamily.com/predicting-the-sex-of-your-baby-4580299

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/getting-pregnant/expert-answers/babys-sex/faq-20058219

https://www.goodto.com/family/babies/nub-theory-predict-your-baby-s-sex-at-12-weeks-79866

https://www.bounty.com/pregnancy-and-birth/pregnancy/finding-out-the-sex-of-your-baby

https://www.arobgyn.com/boy-or-girl-when-can-i-find-out-the-sex-of-my-baby/

https://www.lamaze.org/Giving-Birth-with-Confidence/GBWC-Post/to-know-or-not-to-know-your-babys-sex-pros-cons-of-finding-out-or-keeping-it-secret

https://www.babycenter.ca/a1014303/choosing-your-babys-sex-what-the-scientists-say

https://www.bellybelly.com.au/pregnancy/when-can-you-find-out-the-sex-of-your-baby/

https://www.nct.org.uk/pregnancy/tests-scans-and-antenatal-checks/should-we-find-out-sex-our-baby

https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/12/how-soon-can-you-find-out-the-sex-of-your-baby-11084367/

https://www.babymed.com/online-baby-sex-predictor-test-boy-or-girl

https://flo.health/pregnancy/pregnancy-health/prenatal-testing/early-signs-of-your-baby-sex

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/pregnancy-week-by-week/in-depth/fetal-development/art-20046151

https://www.livescience.com/15475-blood-test-baby-sex-pregnancy.html

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (52 children)

Does a letter from a wife to a husband even constitute a nascent feminist movement? Abigail Adams letter included "That your Sex are Naturally Tyrannical is a Truth so thoroughly established as to admit of no dispute" – which demonstrates a good reason not to say "sex" instead of "gender", bc otherwise gender-based hierarchy is considered natural.

You can add Friedrich Engels' 'The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State' to your list as well, but it wasn't until the 2nd wave that feminism became "mainstream", at least within the counter-culture.

The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex by Charles Darwin, published in 1871

Victorians using sex to refer to the sexes only proves my point. There weren't a bunch of books with 'sex' in the title referring to sexual intercourse during the Victorian era, were there? Nowadays there are. If there is a book called "sex education" what do you think it's going to be about? Women's rights?

Those websites are just one half of your argument. You need to compare & contrast. If I Google gender reveal party I get 45.9M results. If I type the following into Google: "how to know baby..." Google's prediction is "...gender". But if I continue typing "how to know baby se..." Google predictions disappear altogether. Same goes for "baby's...", the prediction is "...gender", while "baby's sex..." makes the predictions disappear, while "baby's gender" results in the customary 9 separate predictions by Google. Trying to unstigmatised the word "sex" is a losing battle. So quit shooting the messenger. You're either out of touch or gaslighting.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

tells feminists how to feminism

thinks sex education has nothing to do with womens rights.

Like dude, just take the L.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

wait, you think a book called "sex education" is about women's rights?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (48 children)

No, learn nuance.

Sex education is a part of womens rights. A fairly big one, too. Someone who appoints themselves as enough of an authority on feminism to be telling feminists what they should do and how they should speak should have made that connection.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (47 children)

Sex education is a part of womens rights

Now you're just making up reasons to disagree, my question was whether it was about women's rights or not. The fact that you reformulated it first before disagreeing demonstrates that you know the answer is "no".

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

So you are totally incapable of nuance. Explains a bit.

Come back when you can explain why a book about sex education is not a part of womens rights. Also interesting that you seem to think a book about sex education would only be about intercourse, and not the processes of puberty differences for each sex.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

You're still not actually disagreeing with what I said. A book called sex education isn't about women's rights. Putting words in my mouth is manipulation, not nuance.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (44 children)

I’m disagreeing because you’re acting like sex education would not ever explain that there are two sexes with differences between them, and only uses sex to mean intercourse.

My point in the initial comment was more about how you have elected yourself as the person to tell feminists what language to use and how you are wrong to do that.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (43 children)

Sex organs would certainly come up. The book still wouldn't be about women's rights though. Do a search in this book: https://pdf.zlibcdn.com/dtoken/ffc8e7bf368f98dd4e7734703363e6bf/Sex_Education_and_Sexual_Health_Teaching_Knowledg_16819560_(z-lib.org).pdf for "sexes" or "male sex" or "female sex". Do a search for "sex" & see if any of the instances are referring to the sexes, instead of intercourse

...you have elected yourself...

I think if anyone is doing that, it's OP.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Trying to unstigmatised the word "sex" is a losing battle.

You're the only one who sees "sex" as stigmatized, LOL. And you're the only one who thinks the only sex act that humans engage in is PIV intercourse.

You're either out of touch or gaslighting.

How am I gaslighting? Maybe I am "out of touch," but you're coming across as someone with zero IRL experience about any of these matters. By taking the position you have, and obstinately refusing to brook any disagreement, you're revealing much more about yourself than you seem to realize.

If there is a book called "sex education" what do you think it's going to be about? Women's rights?

If you looked into the history of "sex education," you'd find it intersects quite a lot with women's rights.