About the origins of the word "gender"

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (207 children)

So far, what I have found is that the use of the word "gender" for non-grammatical purposes has been slowly increasing since mid 20th century. And nowadays is everywhere.

Well yeah, that makes sense. What context is gender normally used in other than a feminist context? It's only since the mid 20th century people have been having serious discussions on women's rights. Same goes for matters regarding sexual intercourse. Culture was becoming freer regarding sex around that time & so it cropped up within the discourse a lot more. You can't just turn back time.

I do not understand your reluctance to use the word sex. Do you talk about "gender hormones" or "gender chromosomes", too?

Bc I don't want to be speaking a language that is hard to understand & vulgar/not child appropriate. As long as I have been alive "gender" has referred to the male & female sexes, while "sex" to sexual intercourse. It isn't until adulthood that people can recognise that gender can also refer to femininity & that sex can refer to being female. So that's a huge demographic that I'd be alienating if I used the lesser known definitions of those two words, while ignoring the far more frequent ones. No one nowadays is going to want to hear or say "sex" & "baby" in the same sentence, when they can say, & have been saying, "gender" instead.

Do you talk about "unigender" fashion or "female-ish" features? What do you think grammatical gender refers to in English? The sexes. So gender means sex either way.

But how can you talk about female biology without talking about sex?

"talking about sex" to 99% of the population, 99% of the time means: talking about sexual intercourse, so I'd have to at least say "biological sex" anyway. "Female biology" gets the point across better.

Why do you care so much that feminists keep using the word gender? How can TRA appropirate the word gender from feminists when it was Money and Stoller who came up with the idea? What is more, TRA's current ideas of "gender identity" have more in common with Money and Stoller's ideas of "gender" than with feminist ones. Or are you going to argue that Money and Stoller were all for advancing women's rights?

What does "gender" mean to a modern-day transgenderist? They use an established word to refer to their desires & role-play. That's not what it means. Not within feminism, not even according to Judith Butler, or Stoller, all of whom described gender as: masculinity & femininity. If you react to that with "meh, that's close enough to TRA ideology" then you're giving the movement way more credence & integrity than it deserves.

Within feminism "gender" refers to the social impacts that biological sex has in our culture. "Gender identity" "gender roles" "gender inequality" just means it's not caused by nature, but it's still gender segregated – I say "gender segregated", instead of "sex segregated", since there is no biological reason for the separate roles, identities & inequalities I'm referring to. "Sex inequality" might refer to the ways in which nature has been unequal. If you segregate people by sex or gender you end up with the same result. Gender segregation in the aforementioned ways (roles, identities, inequalities) only exists bc of biological differences between the sexes.

That's why I'm not going to be complicit in transgenderism's re-defining of "gender" to mean: an "identity" constituted by the strong desire to role-play the opposite sex, which must be regarded as more valid than biology & its far-reaching social consequences.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (71 children)

The language isnt vulgar or inappropriate though.. A child knowing that their yard chickens are all of the female sex is no more offensive than a child knowing they have a penis or a vulva, which is to say not offensive at all.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (70 children)

They're called hens, which are female chickens. The "sex" part is redundant. That's why kids don't know the word, bc it's not relevant to their world. It's not about "offence", it's about obscenity, at least in the eyes of the majority.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (69 children)

You think it’s obscene to know the word sex? Why? What is preventing you from separating intercourse from the fact that animals and plants are sexed? Appeals to majority aren’t much of an argument when you can’t even say for sure the majority thinks the word sex is obscene and strictly refers to intercourse.

You might as well say it’s wrong to call chicken thigh anything but ‘dark meat’ as a euphemism.

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (68 children)

You think it’s obscene to know the word sex?

Quit gaslighting me, mate. It's not me who thinks it, it's every English-speaker who does. Do a Google Image search of sex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

Since you like pictures: an image search of "sex determination," "sex chickens," "sexing chickens" will show that the word "sex" is widely seen, and used, to mean male and female too.

Most people, including children, are capable of grasping that the same word can have multiple meanings and do not see the word "sex" as obscene. You seem to think that your own narrow - and dare I say peculiar - view is held by "every English speaker," but I don't believe this to be the case.

Looking into the etymology of the word "sex," it seems "sex" has been used to mean the "quality of being male or female" since the 14th century. But the use of "sex" to mean one specific sex act, aka "sexual intercourse," is a much more recent development, one that only emerged in the early 20th century. Sex to mean male/female has been in use for 500-600 or more years. To mean PIV intercourse, a little more than 100 years. But when people started using "sex" to mean PIV sexual intercourse, this created an additional meaning for the word that went alongside the more traditional meaning. It didn't supplant the traditional meaning the way you claim, and the way you wish.

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

But the use of "sex" to mean one specific sex act, aka "sexual intercourse," is a much more recent development, one that only emerged in the early 20th century.

Anyone who lived earlier than that is dead now lol.

It didn't supplant the traditional meaning

Didn't it? Let me just check again: sex. Seems you're still wrong.

I'm still waiting for the reason to use "sex" instead of "gender" to refer to male & female. All I'm getting so far is "bc it's a dead tradition that has no chance of being resurrected, but let's keep pretending it's just as popular as ever, while also admitting it's been replaced".

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

I'm still waiting for the reason to use "sex" instead of "gender" to refer to male & female. All I'm getting so far is "bc it's a dead tradition that has no chance of being resurrected, but let's keep pretending it's just as popular as ever, while also admitting it's been replaced".

Crack a biology book. Or since pictures is more your speed, do a google image search of "biological sex."

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

If the "biological" part is so integral, maybe stop arguing about the meaning of "sex" on its own. How would a biology book prove your point? The only time it would use the word 'sex' would be to refer to intercourse or organs, not males &/or females.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How would a biology book prove your point? The only time it would use the word 'sex' would be to refer to intercourse or organs, not males &/or females.

Wut? You think the fact that plants and animals are male and female isn't discussed in biology books? Clearly you've never looked at a biology book.

Also, sex and reproductive organs are not the only parts of the human body that are sexed. Every nucleated cell is sexed. There are thousands of differences in the anatomy and physiology of human males and females.

When doing an online search, adding the "biological" to the word sex tells the search engine which meaning of the word is being referred to.

No one is denying that "sex" has the meaning you say it has. We are disagreeing with your contention that this is the only meaning the word has.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

As someone with a background in the life sciences, I can tell you biology and medicine literature do use the word sex to mean the biological category.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

Lmao I’m not gaslighting you, cut the melodrama.

Google images is not the population of my country, or used to define words to English speaking people across the planet, so I’m gonna keep seeing how you are wrong.

Gaslighting..lmao that’s a new one for women not agreeing with your directions for feminism.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (37 children)

I guess I run Google, right?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

No and that wasn’t implied. Seems like you are taking disagreement with you very personally and are frankly behaving most like masks right now.

You think google, which caches millions and millions of porn sites, dictates what sex means despite others having very clearly explained how you are incorrect? Like, it’s fine that you add connotations to the word sex but it’s just not as meaningful to others. What you attach to a word is not universal.

Do you have anything worthwhile to add except snark and silly accusations of emotional abuse against you?

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

None of the results are porn sites though. The denotation of the word 'sex' is sexual intercourse though. Google results back up my claim. If you're going to patronisingly poo-poo it, then I'd like to see some evidence to the contrary.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

I’m not searching something I know will show me something I don’t care to see. The point so, so, obviously, is that google images is not how anybody defines words.

It’s a ridiculous argument that requires us to both be disingenuous about how people define words.

It’s completely on you if you get offended by a kid saying something like ‘mum found out the sex of the baby! I’m gonna have a sister!’ or are so unable to discern context that you think they are talking about intercourse.

You can huff and puff and tell feminists that they need to talk how you want them to till the cows come home but it’s isn’t going to make you correct or your repeated point any more convincing.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

Bc I don't want to be speaking a language that is hard to understand & vulgar/not child appropriate. As long as I have been alive "gender" has referred to the male & female sexes, while "sex" to sexual intercourse. It isn't until adulthood that people can recognise that gender can also refer to femininity & that sex can refer to being female. So that's a huge demographic that I'd be alienating if I used the lesser known definitions of those two words, while ignoring the far more frequent ones. No one nowadays is going to want to hear or say "sex" & "baby" in the same sentence, when they can say, & have been saying, "gender" instead.

Snow, your squeamishness about the word "sex" is your issue. Please don't project your own personal discomfort with it on to everyone else and presume it represents the prevailing POV.

I don't know how long you've been alive, by since you cited your lived experience to back up your position, I'll add mine too: all my life since going back to my earliest memories more than 60 years ago I've used the word sex to mean both the repro category and the set of intimate acts/behaviors humans and other organisms engage in. Everyone I know has done the same - and we're all okay, and not at all confused.

Your bizarre contention, made in another post below, that the word sex="obscenity" gives the impression that you were raised in a very puritanical community with a peculiar view on this. I'd say it sounds like you've time-traveled here from the Victorian era, but that would be inaccurate and unfair because even the fussy Victorians had no problem using the word sex to mean both a set of intimate behaviors that sexually-reproducing organisms engage in, and the two sex classes, male and female. In fact, one of the most important, influential books of the Victorian era that is still well known today has sex in its title: The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex by Charles Darwin, published in 1871.

As to your claim that

It isn't until adulthood that people can recognise ... that sex can refer to being female.

WTF?

No one nowadays is going to want to hear or say "sex" & "baby" in the same sentence, when they can say, & have been saying, "gender" instead.

Even today when it's become so common to use "gender" to mean "sex," tons of people - especially pregnant women, couples TTC, parents of young babies, midwives, pediatricians and others involved in health care - have no problem hearing, saying or reading "sex" and "baby" in the same sentence, and do so all the time. In fact, people customarily use these words not just in same sentence, but in close succession as in the phrase "sex of baby" and even back to back when speaking of a "baby's sex." Some results I got when I googled those phrases:

https://www.livescience.com/15475-blood-test-baby-sex-pregnancy.html

https://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnancy/predicting-sex-of-baby

https://www.verywellfamily.com/babys-sex-overview-4581826

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/when-can-you-find-out-the-sex-of-a-baby

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/boy-or-girl-can-you-choose-your-babys-sex/

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/does-babys-heart-rate-reveal-their-sex/

https://www.webmd.com/baby/features/predicting-your-babys-sex#1

https://www.webmd.com/baby/what-to-know-ultrasound-babys-sex#1

https://www.healthline.com/health/pregnancy/when-can-you-find-out-sex-of-baby

https://www.sharecare.com/health/fetal-development-basics-pregnancy/determining-sex-of-a-baby

https://www.babycenter.com/pregnancy/health-and-safety/when-and-how-can-i-find-out-my-babys-sex_20004784

https://www.parents.com/pregnancy/my-baby/gender-prediction/qa-how-soon-can-you-find-out-babys-sex/

https://www.verywellfamily.com/predicting-the-sex-of-your-baby-4580299

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/getting-pregnant/expert-answers/babys-sex/faq-20058219

https://www.goodto.com/family/babies/nub-theory-predict-your-baby-s-sex-at-12-weeks-79866

https://www.bounty.com/pregnancy-and-birth/pregnancy/finding-out-the-sex-of-your-baby

https://www.arobgyn.com/boy-or-girl-when-can-i-find-out-the-sex-of-my-baby/

https://www.lamaze.org/Giving-Birth-with-Confidence/GBWC-Post/to-know-or-not-to-know-your-babys-sex-pros-cons-of-finding-out-or-keeping-it-secret

https://www.babycenter.ca/a1014303/choosing-your-babys-sex-what-the-scientists-say

https://www.bellybelly.com.au/pregnancy/when-can-you-find-out-the-sex-of-your-baby/

https://www.nct.org.uk/pregnancy/tests-scans-and-antenatal-checks/should-we-find-out-sex-our-baby

https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/12/how-soon-can-you-find-out-the-sex-of-your-baby-11084367/

https://www.babymed.com/online-baby-sex-predictor-test-boy-or-girl

https://flo.health/pregnancy/pregnancy-health/prenatal-testing/early-signs-of-your-baby-sex

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/pregnancy-week-by-week/in-depth/fetal-development/art-20046151

https://www.livescience.com/15475-blood-test-baby-sex-pregnancy.html

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (52 children)

Does a letter from a wife to a husband even constitute a nascent feminist movement? Abigail Adams letter included "That your Sex are Naturally Tyrannical is a Truth so thoroughly established as to admit of no dispute" – which demonstrates a good reason not to say "sex" instead of "gender", bc otherwise gender-based hierarchy is considered natural.

You can add Friedrich Engels' 'The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State' to your list as well, but it wasn't until the 2nd wave that feminism became "mainstream", at least within the counter-culture.

The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex by Charles Darwin, published in 1871

Victorians using sex to refer to the sexes only proves my point. There weren't a bunch of books with 'sex' in the title referring to sexual intercourse during the Victorian era, were there? Nowadays there are. If there is a book called "sex education" what do you think it's going to be about? Women's rights?

Those websites are just one half of your argument. You need to compare & contrast. If I Google gender reveal party I get 45.9M results. If I type the following into Google: "how to know baby..." Google's prediction is "...gender". But if I continue typing "how to know baby se..." Google predictions disappear altogether. Same goes for "baby's...", the prediction is "...gender", while "baby's sex..." makes the predictions disappear, while "baby's gender" results in the customary 9 separate predictions by Google. Trying to unstigmatised the word "sex" is a losing battle. So quit shooting the messenger. You're either out of touch or gaslighting.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

tells feminists how to feminism

thinks sex education has nothing to do with womens rights.

Like dude, just take the L.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

wait, you think a book called "sex education" is about women's rights?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (48 children)

No, learn nuance.

Sex education is a part of womens rights. A fairly big one, too. Someone who appoints themselves as enough of an authority on feminism to be telling feminists what they should do and how they should speak should have made that connection.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (47 children)

Sex education is a part of womens rights

Now you're just making up reasons to disagree, my question was whether it was about women's rights or not. The fact that you reformulated it first before disagreeing demonstrates that you know the answer is "no".

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

So you are totally incapable of nuance. Explains a bit.

Come back when you can explain why a book about sex education is not a part of womens rights. Also interesting that you seem to think a book about sex education would only be about intercourse, and not the processes of puberty differences for each sex.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

You're still not actually disagreeing with what I said. A book called sex education isn't about women's rights. Putting words in my mouth is manipulation, not nuance.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (44 children)

I’m disagreeing because you’re acting like sex education would not ever explain that there are two sexes with differences between them, and only uses sex to mean intercourse.

My point in the initial comment was more about how you have elected yourself as the person to tell feminists what language to use and how you are wrong to do that.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Trying to unstigmatised the word "sex" is a losing battle.

You're the only one who sees "sex" as stigmatized, LOL. And you're the only one who thinks the only sex act that humans engage in is PIV intercourse.

You're either out of touch or gaslighting.

How am I gaslighting? Maybe I am "out of touch," but you're coming across as someone with zero IRL experience about any of these matters. By taking the position you have, and obstinately refusing to brook any disagreement, you're revealing much more about yourself than you seem to realize.

If there is a book called "sex education" what do you think it's going to be about? Women's rights?

If you looked into the history of "sex education," you'd find it intersects quite a lot with women's rights.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (80 children)

Well yeah, that makes sense. What context is gender normally used in other than a feminist context? It's only since the mid 20th century people have been having serious discussions on women's rights. Same goes for matters regarding sexual intercourse. Culture was becoming freer regarding sex around that time & so it cropped up within the discourse a lot more. You can't just turn back time.

The frequency of both words, sex and gender, has increased; however, gender has gone through a greater increase. Sex was a more common word than gender because the latter was mainly used in grammar before mid 20th century. And the increase of people using gender to mean biological sex is a more recent development.

Bc I don't want to be speaking a language that is hard to understand & vulgar/not child appropriate. As long as I have been alive "gender" has referred to the male & female sexes, while "sex" to sexual intercourse. It isn't until adulthood that people can recognise that gender can also refer to femininity & that sex can refer to being female. So that's a huge demographic that I'd be alienating if I used the lesser known definitions of those two words, while ignoring the far more frequent ones. No one nowadays is going to want to hear or say "sex" & "baby" in the same sentence, when they can say, & have been saying, "gender" instead.

I really don't see how saying sex is vulgar... Do you think teaching kids about the proper names of body parts like penis or vulva is inapropriate, too? What have you been taugh in biology class at school that you didn't learn about the sex being used to whether you are female or male until adulthood? Am I supposed to believe young students from English speaking countries never heard of things like sex hormones, sex chromosomes or sexual reproduction?

What do you think grammatical gender refers to in English? The sexes. So gender means sex either way.

Technically, the English language has four genders: feminine for words that denote the female sex (e.g. woman, girl, mother, baroness, lady, mare), masculine for words that denote the male sex (e.g. man, boy, father, baron, lord, stallion), common for words used for either sex (e.g. person, child, parent, horse, student, teacher) and neuter for words that denote non-living things (e.g. pencil, rock, train, building, book). However, sometimes English speakers talk of some things that don't have a sex as if they were male or female (e.g. a ship may refered as "she").

What does "gender" mean to a modern-day transgenderist? They use an established word to refer to their desires & role-play. That's not what it means. Not within feminism, not even according to Judith Butler, or Stoller, all of whom described gender as: masculinity & femininity. If you react to that with "meh, that's close enough to TRA ideology" then you're giving the movement way more credence & integrity than it deserves.

For the little I've read by her, Judith Butler is a charlatan that write words salads to sound smarter than she is. It's hard to call her feminist when she says she isn't a woman, and that women must prioritize the feelings of males who claim to be "women". And Stoller was another charlatan and, definetely, not a feminist. How is it feminist to encourage "effeminate" boys to hurt their mothers because that "manly" men are violent towards women?

Within feminism "gender" refers to the social impacts that biological sex has in our culture. "Gender identity" "gender roles" "gender inequality" just means it's not caused by nature, but it's still gender segregated – I say "gender segregated", instead of "sex segregated", since there is no biological reason for the separate roles, identities & inequalities I'm referring to. "Sex inequality" might refer to the ways in which nature has been unequal. If you segregate people by sex or gender you end up with the same result. Gender segregation in the aforementioned ways (roles, identities, inequalities) only exists bc of biological differences between the sexes.

That is right, sexism and misogyny comes from the the biological differences between the sex. I don't see the need to obscure this fact by talking about "gender". Nowadays, we are told women are treated differently due to society not valuing feminity, which is absurd.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

ETA: This is a response to something SnowAssMan posted. The site software sometimes makes it hard to tell who a reply is aimed at when there are a string of replies.

It's only since the mid 20th century people have been having serious discussions on women's rights.

What an arrogant, utterly ignorant statement. Just because you personally don't know about all the "serious discussions on women's rights" that occurred before the mid-20th century doesn't mean they didn't happen.

During the time that the founding fathers of the US were meeting at the Continental Congress in 1776, Abigail Adams famously wrote her husband a long letter in which she asked that he and the other men "not forget the ladies":

The future First Lady wrote in part, “I long to hear that you have declared an independency. And, by the way, in the new code of laws which I suppose it will be necessary for you to make, I desire you would remember the ladies and be more generous and favorable to them than your ancestors. Do not put such unlimited power into the hands of the husbands. Remember, all men would be tyrants if they could. If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation.”

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/abigail-adams-urges-husband-to-remember-the-ladies

A Vindication of the Rights of Woman by Mary Wollstonecraft was published in 1792. https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3420

In the USA, feminists held the first national conference on women's rights in Seneca Falls, NY in 1848. At the two-day meeting, 300 women and men debated Elizabeth Cady Stanton’s Declaration of Sentiments, which outlined and protested women’s inferior status and included a radical demand for women's suffrage.

After Seneca Falls, women’s rights conventions became annual events, where women met to discuss educational opportunities, divorce reform, property rights, and sometimes labor issues. Women lent their support to abolishing slavery believing universal suffrage would follow, but both the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments ignored their demand for suffrage. National leaders responded differently, leading to a split in the movement and contrasting campaigns for voting rights at the local, state, and national levels. In 1878 the first federal women’s suffrage amendment was introduced but was soundly defeated later in the first full Senate vote in 1887. As the nineteenth century neared an end, competing national suffrage groups reunited as the National American Woman Suffrage Association (NAWSA), and groundwork was laid for a national movement.

https://www.loc.gov/exhibitions/women-fight-for-the-vote/about-this-exhibition/seneca-falls-and-building-a-movement-1776-1890/

John Stuart Mill published The Subjection of Women in 1869.

https://www.jfki.fu-berlin.de/academics/SummerSchool/Dateien2011/Papers/juncker_remy.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_feminist_literature

http://www.crusadeforthevote.org/woman-suffrage-timeline-18401920

https://news.stanford.edu/2020/08/12/19th-amendment-milestone-not-endpoint-womens-rights-america/

https://historicengland.org.uk/research/inclusive-heritage/womens-history/suffrage/

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm not the one who said that, Snow was.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I know. I was replying to Snow. I dunno why the formatting came out this way. Sorry.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (76 children)

I really don't see how saying sex is vulgar

Then you are being disingenuous. Why would you want to use a word laden with sexual connotation? By doing so you only make it easier for transgenderism to influence children. If you relinquish "gender" you'll be relinquishing the only word that exists for children to refer to biological sex. You can't turn back the clock on "sex" meaning sexual intercourse, exclusively, to most people. You can't even list any benefits to saying sex instead of gender.

Technically, the English language has four genders

There are only two linguistic genders in English: masculinity & femininity. Neuter isn't a gender, since there are non-gendered languages. They are not said to have one gender.

Judith Butler rant rant rant, Stoller rant rant.

Hello? My point is that modern transgenderism's view of gender isn't even consistent with Butler & Stoller. Conversely, Butler & Stoller's definitions are perfectly concordant with feminism's. If you think the reverse is true, please expound.

sexism and misogyny comes from the the biological differences between the sex. I don't see the need to obscure this fact by talking about "gender". Nowadays, we are told women are treated differently due to society not valuing feminity, which is absurd.

Biological differences are the catalyst, not the cause. How is using a synonym for the word "obscuring" it? Ask anyone to name a gender, I guarantee they'll never say "femininity".

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (57 children)

You can't turn back the clock on "sex" meaning sexual intercourse, exclusively, to most people.

Mate, you're the one who is "turning the clock back" on what "sex" means to most people.

Why would you want to use a word laden with sexual connotation? By doing so you only make it easier for transgenderism to influence children. If you relinquish "gender" you'll be relinquishing the only word that exists for children to refer to biological sex.

"Sex" is not a dirty word. Little kids are naturally interested in, and observant of, the myriad physical differences between males and females of various animal and plant species, including Homo sapiens. Learning about "the birds and the bees," how babies are made, where babies come from, etc is a routine part of growing up. It's one of the reasons that children's books so often feature animals, and why kids are so into pets, zoos and visits to farms to see the animals.

Your insistence that "sex" be replaced with "gender" leads in exactly the wrong direction. How are kids to learn basic biology if no one can speak about sex?

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (56 children)

Mate, you're the one who is "turning the clock back" on what "sex" means to most people.

Let's remind ourselves what sex means to most people again: https://www.google.com/search?q=sex&client=firefox-b-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjy5teanaP0AhWq8rsIHUCpBAAQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1206&bih=660&dpr=1

Go ask any child: what is sex?

Maybe you want to know which of the two genders people think is better: masculinity or femininity. Let me do a Google search for "which gender is better" & see if anyone anywhere knows that I'm obviously talking about masculinity & femininity, not men & women. Oh look, literally everyone everywhere doesn't realise "gender" is an umbrella term for masculinity & femininity, instead everyone seems to think it's a synonym for the biological sexes instead. How weird. How did that happen? Did me insisting that gender replace sex make it happen? I better use my new powers responsibly.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (55 children)

Why don't you stop being a smartass and use better arguments instead?

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (54 children)

I'm still waiting for your arguments to be substantiated. You make claims without backing them up & dismiss evidence without reason.

Worst case scenario: the word 'gender' becomes the word to refer to biological sex – what hellish results do you predict for such a dystopian future? Please tell me your reason for resisting such a "change".

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Hundreds of millions of papers and books about all the life sciences and other fields - biology, zoology, agriculture, horticulture, plant science, genetics, medicine, child development - and materials concerning subject areas like pet care, livestock, dog breeding, and so on would have to be rewritten if "gender" were to replace "sex."

Since you seem most interested in image searches, do an image search for "plant sex" and "biological sex." Yes, sex does mean various sex acts today, including coitus. But it doesn't mean only that. People know which way the word is being used based on context. Just as people know that the word "foot" has different meanings in the statements: "I broke my foot," "I'll foot the bill," "Put the blanket at the foot of the bed" and "I am five foot eight."

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

Hundreds of millions of papers and books about all the life sciences and other fields - biology, zoology, agriculture, horticulture, plant science, genetics, medicine, child development - and materials concerning subject areas like pet care, livestock, dog breeding, and so on would have to be rewritten if "gender" were to replace "sex."

The horror.

Just look at how stigmatised the gay movement is bc of it's association with sex. Why tf would you want to add that obstacle to feminism? Especially when there are literally no benefits?

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Just look at how stigmatised the gay movement is bc of it's association with sex.

Whoah, what? Speak for yourself. Gay people might be stigmatized in your mind, but that's because you think sex itself is obscene and shouldn't be mentioned - and you seem to have a special and even worse problem with homosexuality.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I've backed up my claims in the OP, which you chose to ignore. And I've explained my arguments since we began discussing about gender months ago. You disagreeing with me doesn't change that fact.

Worst case scenario would if we end up without words for talking about sex because we are only left with "gender identity".

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

Now that's a leap in logic worthy of Judith Butler.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

How so? That is exactly what transactivists want.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Then you are being disingenuous. Why would you want to use a word laden with sexual connotation? By doing so you only make it easier for transgenderism to influence children. If you relinquish "gender" you'll be relinquishing the only word that exists for children to refer to biological sex. You can't turn back the clock on "sex" meaning sexual intercourse, exclusively, to most people.

The meaning refering to the biological category is not vulgar. And I assure you kids nowadays have heard (and seen) worse than the word sex.

And you didn't answer my questions. Do you think teaching kids about the proper names of body parts like penis or vulva is inapropriate, too? What have you been taugh in biology class at school that you didn't learn about the sex being used to say whether you are female or male until adulthood? Am I supposed to believe young students from English speaking countries never heard of things like sex hormones, sex chromosomes or sexual reproduction?

You can't even list any benefits to saying sex instead of gender.

I'm concerned with the erasure of sex. Not merely with "gender" being used as euphemism for "sex", but with sex being erased as a concept. Trans activists keep saying that sex is a spectrum, that you cannot know someone's sex without pulling down their pants, that we must record "gender identity" instead of sex, that sex is irrelevant, that we cannot assume males who claim to be "women" have an athletic advantage over women and so on and so on. TRA don't have good arguments or evidence on their side. What they have is silly word games and the word "gender" is the trap they use to advance the denial of sex. Using their terms is playing under their own rules.

There are only two linguistic genders in English: masculinity & femininity. Neuter isn't a gender, since there are non-gendered languages. They are not said to have one gender.

You clearly don't know what a neuter gender is. English may not be a good example since grammatical gender has lost its importance within the language. German may be a better example since gender is more marked there and it can be masculine, feminine or neuter.

Hello? My point is that modern transgenderism's view of gender isn't even consistent with Butler & Stoller. Conversely, Butler & Stoller's definitions are perfectly concordant with feminism's. If you think the reverse is true, please expound.

I literally told you why I don't think they're feminists, but you dismissed it as just a "rant". And Saying that Robert Stoller was a feminist should be uncontorversial. Many would claim he cannot be one for being a man. But even putting aside his sex, why should I regard a man who thought male violence is desirable and blame the lack of "manlines" of some men in the lack of a proper fatherly figure as a feminst? And my point was TRA's ideas were closer to the ideas of Stoller (and Money), not identical.

Biological differences are the catalyst, not the cause. How is using a synonym for the word "obscuring" it? Ask anyone to name a gender, I guarantee they'll never say "femininity".

I've explained this above. Sex is being replaced by or reinterpreted as gender (identity) in law.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

If your child draws a penis at school, you'll probably get a phone call. If you child just draws a boy, no such call will happen. What do you think the nature of the phone call might be? Suggesting that a penis is obscene is as ridiculous as suggesting that a boy is obscene, right? You have my permission to quit patronising me now.

I'm concerned with the erasure of sex [...] as a concept.

You help erase it as a concept every time you refer to it as "sex".

Using their terms is playing under their own rules

Gender isn't their term, remember? You insist it only means masculinity & femininity & has no other meaning.

German may be a better example since gender is more marked there and it can be masculine, feminine or neuter.

If German only had neuter, would linguists say it only has one gender, or would they say it's not a gendered language? Seeing as there are no languages with only one gender, but there are languages that are not gendered, you must already know the answer to that one.

they're not feminists tho!!!

Irrelevant tho. I never said they were tho. Pay attention tho. Modern transgenderism's view of gender isn't consistent with Butler & Stoller. Conversely, Butler & Stoller's definitions are perfectly concordant with feminism's. If you think the reverse is true, please expound.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

If your child draws a penis at school, you'll probably get a phone call. If you child just draws a boy, no such call will happen. What do you think the nature of the phone call might be? Suggesting that a penis is obscene is as ridiculous as suggesting that a boy is obscene, right? You have my permission to quit patronising me now.

Wait, wut? Are you now saying it's considered odd for a child to draw a penis - and that this would be considered obscene? Or are you saying it's ridiculous to think anyone would suggest a child's picture of a penis is obscene?

What if your child draws people in the shape of penises? I have a son who did exactly that when he was little. We referred to the way he drew figures as "penis people." When he was in kindergarten all the kids had to draw pics of their families for a family fair, where all the artwork was displayed and the families came to visit. We were henceforth known as "The Penis Family."

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/kids-funny-drawings-penises_uk_5cc97271e4b0d123954c9aa9

Kids draw penises and things that look like penises all the time.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8676916/children-drawings-hilarious-rude/

https://metro.co.uk/2021/06/17/paul-bettanys-kids-draw-penis-on-his-back-in-suncream-14787613/

If a school has an issue with a kid drawing a penis, then usually the age of the child would be a factor, as would other considerations such as whether it's done repetitively, it's done to show or send to others to sexually harass or cause distress, or the drawings constitute graffiti or property damage.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

If your child draws a penis at school, you'll probably get a phone call. If you child just draws a boy, no such call will happen. What do you think the nature of the phone call might be? Suggesting that a penis is obscene is as ridiculous as suggesting that a boy is obscene, right?

I said nothing about drawing penises... So, should I take this as you saying that children shouldn't be taught the proper for body parts because they are obscene? When they should learn the proper names? At 18 years old alongside the word sex? Are you ever going to tell me what you were taught at biology class?

You have my permission to quit patronising me now.

Look who talks about being patronizing...

You help erase it as a concept every time you refer to it as "sex".

So, I every time I use the word sex I help to erase the concept of sex... That doens't make any sense.

Gender isn't their term, remember? You insist it only means masculinity & femininity & has no other meaning.

Yeah, sure. They talk about gender all day, but it's not ther term. Read the OP again, feminists weren't the ones who started talking about gender.

If German only had neuter, would linguists say it only has one gender, or would they say it's not a gendered language? Seeing as there are no languages with only one gender, but there are languages that are not gendered, you must already know the answer to that one.

You're so keen on proving me wrong that you keep saying even more ridiculous things. It's called neuter gender because it's an aditional gender besides the masculine and feminine. Maybe try studying a bit of grammar.

https://bostonlanguage.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/gender-in-languages-across-the-world/

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Grammatical_gender

Irrelevant tho. I never said they were tho. Pay attention tho. Modern transgenderism's view of gender isn't consistent with Butler & Stoller. Conversely, Butler & Stoller's definitions are perfectly concordant with feminism's. If you think the reverse is true, please expound.

So, Butler and Stoller are not feminists, but their ideas about gender are perfectly concordant with feminism. You're not even trying to make a coherent argument anymore, dude.

[–]SnowAssMan 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

Sex is considered obscene, hence why it'll never be shown early in the morning on Nick Jr. You really needed that explained to you?

You can say sex as often & as loudly as you like, all you'll be saying is sexual intercourse, like a mother bird feeding a brood parasite.

So gender doesn't mean masculinity or femininity either now, it just means whatever transgenderists say bc they use it all the time? Transgenderists weren't the ones who started talking about gender either, your point?

Yeah, & neutering your dog is giving it a sex change.

Do you think gender means masculinity & femininity? Then you agree with Stoller & Butler. According to your logic you're not a feminist anymore by virtue of the aforementioned. Maybe read their books first, instead of making assumptions about what they wrote.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sex is considered obscene, hence why it'll never be shown early in the morning on Nick Jr. You really needed that explained to you?

Sex is considered obscene by you, and to you. Obscene means offensive, disgusting, repugnant, an affront to moral decency. Most people don't agree with you that sex is obscene. Sex, or rather material that is sexually explicit, is inappropriate for children. Inappropriate for children is not the same as obscene.

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Same difference.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Sex is considered obscene, hence why it'll never be shown early in the morning on Nick Jr. You really needed that explained to you?

I wasn't talking about sexual relationships, but the word sex with the meaning of whether someone is male or female. Are you going to ever answer me what you were taught at biology class? Are you saying young students never heard of things like sex hormones and sex chromosomes at school in the English speaking world? Are they only taught about "gender hormones" and "gender chromosomes" instead? Are you saying young students never check the dictionary? The Oxford, Cambridge and Collins dictionaries list the state of being male or female as the first meaning for sex:

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/sex_1?q=sex

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sex

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/sex

Do you think gender means masculinity & femininity? Then you agree with Stoller & Butler. According to your logic you're not a feminist anymore by virtue of the aforementioned. Maybe read their books first, instead of making assumptions about what they wrote.

The word gender is used with the following meanings: (1) a grammatical category, (2) a euphemism for sex, (3) the different social norms and steretypes applied to women and men that put women below men, (4) short for "gender identity". The average person who knows little of feminis or transgenderism it's probably aware only of the two first meanings. Transactivists switch between meaning #2 and #4 depending on what is more convenient for them at the moment.

Personally, I use the meaning #1 and avoid the word when talking about sexism and misogyny. How am I agreeing with Butler or Stoller?

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Teens eventually learn about sexual intercourse in & outside school. That's their introduction to the word 'sex'.

The OED is the authority (for lack of a better word) on the English language.

Feminist theorists use the word "gender" (not referring to grammar), in the same way that Stoller & Butler do, so you're unusual if you only use it to refer to grammatical gender – at least you would be, if that was actually the case. You use the word 'gender' with the transgenderist definition attached (like most choice-feminists & GC feminists, bc most GC feminists are former choice-feminists). The difference is, you, like all GC feminists, disagree with it's legitimacy. However, simply by accepting the trans re-definition of 'gender' to mean APG RPG, you are compromising your own position & indirectly legitimising your opponents' in a fundamental way.

If only you just used gender in the grammatical sense, exclusively. That would be an improvement. Alas!

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Teens eventually learn about sexual intercourse in & outside school. That's their introduction to the word 'sex'.

So, do teens not learn about sex hormones or sex chromosomes at shool? Or do they learn instead of "gender hormones" or "gender chromosomes"?

The OED is the authority (for lack of a better word) on the English language.

And the Oxford Dictionary list the state of being male or female as the first meaning for sex. What do you have to say about it?

I've addressed your other points in my other replies.