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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (138 children)

If i called myself black but was actually not black and black people informed me that the basis for me calling myself black was rooted in pushing racist stereotypes about black people i would absolutely stop referring to myself as black. Because it’s the right thing to do. Males should have the same basic level of respect for females (and females for males) IMO.

It’s not a lie to anyone. It’s literally not a lie lol, even if it feels wrong to you personally.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (137 children)

Calling myself a man would Absolutely be lying for your benefit.

That label doesn’t fit. It would be as wrong as calling myself a chicken or a cat.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (103 children)

Calling myself a man would Absolutely be lying for your benefit.

That label doesn’t fit. It would be as wrong as calling myself a chicken or a cat.

Then call yourself a "non man" or something else. Make up a new term that more accurately describes yourself. That's a reasonable proposition. I could get behind that.

What's not reasonable is for some self-appointed males to keep appropriating the word "woman" and insisting the meaning has been change to include males like you and them. The word "woman" is taken, as are the words women, girl/s, female/s, mother/s, daughter/s, sister/s,etc. The attempts of some males to steal and change these words are insulting and harmful to those of us to whom these terms genuinely apply. Better to spend your energies inventing and popularizing your own brand-new terms to describe your reality than to try to force the world to bend to your will.

Also, sorry to inform you, but male activists' and allies' aggressive appropriation of the word woman, and constant insistence that women do as you/they tell us, doesn't make a compelling case for you and others in your position being a breed entirely apart from, and different to, others of your sex who got standard male socialization.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (102 children)

I actually wouldn’t mind that. If being “non-binary” wasn’t considered part man I could accept that. Non- man is a pretty ugly phrase but I’ve said before in a vaccum I wouldn’t need to be called a woman as long as I wasn’t called a man but we live in a binary society. Everything is split by sexes so you have to pick one and I’d rather be dead than a man so …

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

No one gets to pick their sex like if it were some clothes that you buy from a store. Sex is determined at conception depending on which sex chromosomes you have. Humans cannot change their sex, not naturally nor with the aid of medical technology.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Never said they could. I don’t deny I’m male. But that isn’t the question .

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Uhh, yes, it's part of the question because you're asking us we completely ignore your sex or the sex of other trans identified people in any context. All because you all don't want to be grouped with other people of your sex. You may not deny you're a male, but that it's meaningless if you expect we don't treat you like one.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

if you expect we don’t treat you like one

This has always been my point. If you treat trans women like men, we don’t get protections because men don’t need protections. We never get access to faculties because “the men’s is right there”. We get shoved unprotected into male prisons to be rape dolls because “they’re still men afterall”. The reason trans women have had to struggle with nothing for a century and the reason that we suffer at the hands of men who want us to act like “real men” is exactly because you all want to treat us as just men.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Many GC are not against third spaces. It's mostly trans identified people who don't want them or say they will never be built...

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

They’re even harder to Justify if society considers us as “men asking for even more”.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (87 children)

Good to know. Some pro-trans orgs and people have tried to foist the label "non man" on female people against our wills. But it suits you much more than it does us.

BTW, the sex binary isn't a creation of "society" - it's nature's doing. Moreover, the issue with gender identity is gender - which isn't binary. There are all kinds of ways for an individuals to be.

There have always been guys who've been unconventional for their sex. But only in recent years have such males begun using their lack of affinity for the sex stereotypes associated with their sex as an excuse to make fatuous claims that they are of the opposite sex and to demand that female people accommodate them by giving up our rights to self-definition, safety, privacy, dignity, fairness in sports - and to make it impossible for girls and women to ever be away from males even for a moment.

Also, it's really not true that "everything is split by sexes" at least not in the West any more. Historically, girls & women were excluded from many spheres of life because of our sex, but that's no longer the case. Just a few things are split by sex nowadays, and it's where sex really matters: sports, toilets, locker rooms, change rooms, health care, prisons, etc.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (86 children)

Good to know. Some pro-trans orgs and people have tried to foist the label "non man" on female people against our wills. But it suits you much more than it does us.

I directly said that was an ugly term but whatever.

BTW, the sex binary isn't a creation of "society" - it's nature's doing. Moreover, the issue with gender identity is gender - which isn't binary. There are all kinds of ways for an individuals to be.

Treating everyone differently and separating everyone by sex is a creation of society. Gender isn’t just what you like. It’s identity.

There have always been guys who've been unconventional for their sex.

Good?

But only in recent years have such males begun using their lack of affinity for the sex stereotypes associated with their sex as an excuse to make fatuous claims that they are of the opposite sex and to demand that female people accommodate them by giving up our rights to self-definition, safety, privacy, dignity, fairness in sports - and to make it impossible for girls and women to ever be away from males even for a moment.

Define recently. Bottom surgery itself in 90 years old. And if you include non-binary identities like the Hijra literally thousands of years.

Also, it's really not true that "everything is split by sexes" at least not in the West any more. Historically, girls & women were excluded from many spheres of life because of our sex, but that's no longer the case. Just a few things are split by sex nowadays, and it's where sex really matters: sports, toilets, locker rooms, change rooms, health care, prisons, etc.

Bathrooms and changing rooms determine most of access to society. Health care determines whether we live or die and “trans broken arm syndrome” is very real. And putting trans women in men’s prison is basically guaranteeing they will be raped.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (85 children)

Bathrooms and changing rooms determine most of access to society.

Male people have never been denied toilets, change rooms, clubs, education, sports, the right to vote or anything else limiting their "access to society" based on their sex. Only female people have been. If some males don't want to share toilets and change rooms with others of your sex, then campaign for additional options for you. Stop invading and trying to take over girls and women's spaces.

Define recently. Bottom surgery itself in 90 years old. And if you include non-binary identities like the Hijra literally thousands of years.

By recently I mean since the mid-1970s - so a bit under 50 years, though the trans assault on women's rights has only gotten ferocious and gone mainstream over the past 20 years.

I don't think any surgeries done on "male to female transsexuals" 90 years ago are analogous to what's called "bottom surgery" today. The modern method of penile inversion to create a pelvic cavity was pioneered by Georges Burou in the late 1950s. However, male castration has been around for thousands of years.

As for the Hijra in India/South Asia - this and other similar categories in other cultures are special sex castes created for gay men to separate them from other men. Hijra have nothing to do with women.

putting trans women in men’s prison is basically guaranteeing they will be raped.

Male-on-male violence is for males to sort out amongst yourselves. Putting males who identify as trans into women's prisons doesn't just guarantee that women will be raped, it guarantees that women will be locked in with males who will menace, intimidate, bully, perv on and otherwise abuse them - and some women will become pregnant as a result.

Most males who identify as trans are sexually attracted to women. The ones who end up in prison have very high rates of sexual offending against women and children. In the UK, statistics released by the Ministry of Justice in 2020 show that more than 58% of the males who identify as trans incarcerated in prison in England and Wales in 2019 had at least one conviction for a criminal sex offense. This compares to 17% of the male prison population overall, and 3% of the female prison population.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

Even homosexual males who identify as trans are often misogynistic and full of rage towards women, and since they have male bodies and assets like male grip strength, upper body size and hand size, they can easily overpower females. These same features also give homosexual males a fighting chance to defend themselves if/when physically assaulted by another male. Women don't have that same fighting chance.

Also, trans-identified males are not the only ones who are vulnerable to physical and sexual assault by other males in prison. If this one group of guys should be put in with the women, why not all males who are skinny, frail, weak, good-looking, very young, old, sickly, physically disabled, mentally slow, traumatized, mentally ill and so on? Why not all the males who are child molesters or serving time for collecting images of children being sexually abused by other men? After all, "nonces" are at great risk of assault and rape by other males in prison too.

Finally, not all incarcerated homosexual males who today would fall under the "trans" umbrella are champing at the bit to be placed in women's prisons. Many prefer male facilities because in men's prisons they have a chance to have male-on-male sex and intimacy, to keep the dream of "meeting a guy" and falling in love with him alive, and to hook up IRL with another guy who will care for and protect them. In male prisons, these males often are valued for their ability to give blow jobs, their willingness to playact "in the female role" in penetrative penile anal sex, and their ability to smuggle contraband into and around the premises by stuffing it far up their bums. In women's prisons, these inmates aren't anywhere near as highly valued - and there's zero demand for their blow jobs, for them to be bottoms in anal-penile sex, or for their skills in using their anuses for smuggling.

Health care determines whether we live or die and “trans broken arm syndrome” is very real.

Women's health care needs have been ignored since medicine began. A lot more money and resources have been and are being put into "trans health care" than into areas like endometriosis, pregnancy complications, high maternal mortality, childbirth injuries, menopause and the health problems of elderly women. Now gynecologists are being expected to provide health care and prescribe and monitor the pharmaceutical hormones of trans-identified persons of both sexes. Males who identify as trans are also demanding that gynecologists - most of whom are female - provide them with care following genital surgeries, and prostate exams too - tasks that are in the wheelhouse of urologists and andrologists, and for which those sorts of specialists are specifically trained. This is diverting time, attention, resources and knowledge from female-specific health care and giving it to male and female trans people whose health care is experimental and who have health care problems that are of their own choosing, and which gynecologists are not trained to handle. It's also turning gynecology away from female-specific health care to males with male-specific health care issues. How is this just?

Lots of people have trouble accessing medical care for all sorts of reasons, and have our symptoms and problems ignored or pooh-poohed. Trans people have no idea what it's like to trying to obtain medical care for persons who have a rare or "orphan disease," or several rare and poorly-misunderstood medical conditions at once.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (84 children)

Trans women are denied access to those spaces. You are saying we shouldn’t be in yours and the imminent threat of bodily injury says we can’t be in the other. In what way is that not being restricted?

I don't think any surgeries done on "male to female transsexuals" 90 years ago are analogous to what's called "bottom surgery" today. The modern method of penile inversion to create a pelvic cavity was pioneered by Georges Burou in the late 1950s. However, male castration has been around for thousands of years.

The Hirschfeld (etc) surgeries were at least analogous and were conducted in the early 1930’s. And castration to distance yourself from being seen as a man has existed for thousands of years and was the best available option for dysphoria then. I’m glad you can acknowledge that.

As for the Hijra in India/South Asia - this and other similar categories in other cultures are special sex castes created for gay men to separate them from other men. Hijra have nothing to do with women.

They aren’t treated as men. It’s not a sub class of men. They aren’t seen or treated as men which is precisely my point.

Male-on-male violence is for males to sort out amongst yourselves.

So you admit you are fine with sending trans women to be rape toys for men?

Putting males who identify as trans into women's prisons doesn't just guarantee that women will be raped, it guarantees that women will be locked in with males who will menace, intimidate, bully, perv on and otherwise abuse them - and some women will become pregnant as a result.

Putting a trans woman in women’s prison in no way guarantees any of those things. Leaving aside the utter lack of proof of violent crime rates among trans women that’s a wild swing. Hell most trans women couldn’t even impregnate someone.

You know I’m not even arguing for putting trans women with natal women though. I’ve always said dedicated facilities were the best answer but have fun fighting the straw man.

Most males who identify as trans are sexually attracted to women

And most trans women are attracted to men. Being gay doesn’t predispose you to violence.

The ones who end up in prison have very high rates of sexual offending against women and children.

Unless I’m wrong the statistsics you cite include prostitition which makes that statistic as violence indicator suspect at best.

Even homosexual males who identify as trans are often misogynistic and full of rage towards women, and since they have male bodies and assets like male grip strength, upper body size and hand size, they can easily overpower females.

Trans women don’t have the same bodies as gay men. Hormones preicipitously reduce strength and gay men are less hated than trans women and less likely to be subject to violence. A trans woman on hormones cannot win a fight against a cis man. Ever.

Also, trans-identified males are not the only ones who are vulnerable to physical and sexual assault by other males in prison. If this one group of guys should be put in with the women, why not all males who are skinny, frail, weak, good-looking, very young, old, sickly, physically disabled, mentally slow, traumatized, mentally ill and so on? Why not all the males who are child molesters or serving time for collecting images of children being sexually abused by other men? After all, "nonces" are at great risk of assault and rape by other males in prison too.

Because most of them are physically able and therefore better able to protect themselves and also to hurt natal and trans women. They have “high risk” wards but trans women aren’t any safer than than in male genpop. Also trans women don’t pose the sexual risk cis men do.

Women's health care needs have been ignored since medicine began. A lot more money and resources have been and are being put into "trans health care" than into areas like endometriosis, pregnancy complications, high maternal mortality, childbirth injuries, menopause and the health problems of elderly women. Now gynecologists are being expected to provide health care and prescribe and monitor the pharmaceutical hormones of trans-identified persons of both sexes. Males who identify as trans are also demanding that gynecologists provide them with care following genital surgeries, and prostate exams too. This is diverting time, attention, resources and knowledge from female-specific health care and giving it to males with male-specific health care issues. How is this just?

How is me being denied a flu shot because I am trans? How is that trans women who died a few years back (I believe in Pakistan but I am not positive) after 6 hours in a lobby because they wouldn’t put her in the men’s or women’s wards? How is when you being told by a gp that they won’t prescribe you medicine for an unrelated condition unless you stop hormones “just in case”?

[–]BiologyIsReal[M] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (71 children)

So you admit you are fine with sending trans women to be rape toys for men?

That is not what she said at all. I suggest you don't throw baseless acussations like this, particularly NOT when talking about rape. You don't have a good track record on this topic.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (70 children)

She literally said. “That’s for you to sort you amongst yourselves”. In what way is that distinct from “I’m fine with this happening”?

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

And most trans women are attracted to men.

That's just a bald-faced lie, which is low even for no-evidence ever you. At least 75% of "trans women" are heterosexual males. This has always been the case and is even more so nowadays compared to the 60s, 70s and 80s because of the successes of the gay rights movement.

Prominent "trans women" who are heterosexual males, all of them previously married to women and fathers, include Jan Morris, Renee Richards, Caitlyn Jenner, Martine Rothblatt, Jennifer Finney Boylan, Jennifer Pritzker, Rachel Levine, Marci Bowers, Zoe Tur, and Dana Rivers, the one who killed two lesbians and their son in Berkeley CA a few years back. Leading lights of Genderland today include such heterosexual males as literary bigwigs Grace Lavery and Andrea Long Chu.

Being gay doesn’t predispose you to violence.

No, of course it doesn't. I never said it did. But at the same time, being gay doesn't remove males from the male sex class which has male patterns of violence, criminality and sex offending. Just as claiming a trans identity doesn't make males any less prone to violence and criminality either.

Leaving aside the utter lack of proof of violent crime rates among trans women that’s a wild swing.

I provided you with evidence from the UK Ministry of Justice that shows 58% of the "trans women" in prison in England and Wales in 2019 had at least one conviction for a criminal sex offense. How is that "utter lack of proof of violent crime rates" amongst this group?

In the US, for example, TW have much higher rates of incarceration compared to other males of their same race, age, place of origin and residence, level of education, employment history, etc. For example, depending on which source you go by, the proportion of black TW in the US who already have served a sentenc in jail or prison due to ranges from a low of 49% to nearly 65%. Those are much higher rates of being sentenced to incarceration than black males across the board. At the time when black males' incarceration rates were the highest in the US (at the turn of the 21st century), 33% of them could expect to be sentenced to time in jail or prison in the course of their lives. Now the lifetime incarceration rate for black males has dropped considerably, to under 20%.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The only large scale survey I ever saw had trans women as approximately 33 percent straight, 33 percent bi, and 33 percent gay. That means the majority are attracted to men.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And castration to distance yourself from being seen as a man has existed for thousands of years and was the best available option for dysphoria then. I’m glad you can acknowledge that.

You really don't know much or anything about history beyond the narrow slice that supports trans ideology.

Most males who were castrated historically were not castrated because it "was the best available option for dysphoria then." It was coz eunuchs and castrati has special roles in places like China and Italy. And because Arab slavers castrated the millions of black African boys and men they took into captivity.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn’t say that they were. Political eunuchs and such existed, but so did those who didn’t want to be seen as men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Yeah this is going to get exhausting so I’m gonna say the thing and have this conversation end:

It’s literally not a lie and nothing You comment back will ever make it a lie. Sorry 🤷‍♀️

Regardless of how you feel, it will never be a lie for a transwoman to call themselves a man. It will always be a lie for them to call themselves a woman. It is a fact that TW are male. It is a fact that males are men. Period. It is what it is. Facts don’t care about your feelings. Reality doesn’t either. And it seems biology gives no fucks as well. The dictionary definition still stands and until it doesn’t and there’s a law passed saying we have no choice but to accept you as a woman- it’s never going to be true that you are one. And even in those circumstances it still wouldn’t be true, the lie would just be forced. Nothing and no one in this world will ever make a transwoman not a man, less of a male, or close to being a woman/female. Because it is humanly impossible.

Imagine being a male telling females they would be lying to call themself a male because even though females are telling this male "that’s not what womanhood is, you aren’t actually identifying as us at all and you’re causing harm" the male thinks "why would I listen to females when they tell me that claiming to be a woman is both inaccurate harmful to them? Lol I know Im a woman because my genderfeels. I know better than females what it is to be a woman"

It’s pointless. Women are literally taking the time to explain how this is offensive and harmful and transwomen just don’t give a fuck. They never listen to women. It’s so exhausting and fucked up lol. It’s Also stereotypically the very M word they hate being associated with.

The label fits like a glove made to your exact measurements, baby.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (31 children)

Take issue with me calling myself a woman if you must but I’m not a man. To say so would be a lie in every level. It would be like calling myself a cannibal. Both disgusting and untrue.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Yeah. None of what you’ve said in your response is fact based. I’m speaking in fact. Not feelings, personal beliefs, or philosophy. Factually speaking all TW are men and male and are not women or female in any capacity.

The only lie is the denial of these facts. Acknowledging a male is a man is neither disgusting nor untrue. Nor is it in any way comparable to calling someone a cannibal.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

And you know is disagree. It’s not a “fact” that I’m a man. Because I’m not one. We are literally debating it right now and there isn’t an agreed test. This is a semantic question not a factual one.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Oh a fact can’t be a fact of you personally disagree?

I was unaware. I guess that undoes every argument I ever made here.

I also guess the earth is actually flat. There’s small portion if the population who believes this, so I guess the evidence to them contrary is irrelevant? Is that what you’re saying?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s not a semantic question- the word man has a meaning and so does the word woman. You’re trying to say that because those meanings don’t align with what you want them to they are somehow wrong. That’s just narcissism lol, it’s not an argument

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

There’s no objective test or agreed categorization. This isn’t scientific. It’s a language question.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Lmao no it’s a science question. Biology. Man and woman are words created to describe ans discuss (and distinguish between) biological fact in humans.

There is an agreed, proven, objective and observable categorization and I can’t take you seriously if you’re going to pretend there isn’t because that categorization that works for the entire human population is inconvenient for you.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

No one is debating what male and female are. We are talking past each other unsung different definitions for man or woman. This is definitionally a semantic argument.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

It's not a matter of debate whether men who say they are "women" are, in fact, men. That is so because they have a male body and this is something that can be easily and objctively determined. Biology doesn't care about how said males feel about their sexed bodies or how much effort they put into concealling their sex.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It's not a matter of debate whether men who say they are "women" are, in fact, men.

It literally is. We are talking about it and disagreeing right now.

That is so because they have a male body and this is something that can be easily and objctively determined.

Which I don’t believe is what defines manhood.

Biology doesn't care about how said males feel about their sexed bodies or how much effort they put into concealling their sex.

We aren’t talking about biology, we are talking about social interactions or at least taxonomy. No one is disagreeing about who has what chromosomes. We are arguing about what that means for definitions. It’s semantics.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Some people think the Earth is flat and there is a great conspiracy to hide this "fact". It doesn't make it true.

You don't want to talk biology, but it's absolutely relevant in the discussion. What your chromosomes you have do matter because there is plenty of biological differences between women and men that you have to keep in mind in certain contexts like health care and sports. They matter because only one sex is able to get pregant and only one sex is able to impregnate the former. They matter because sexual orientation is based on sex, not how you personally "identify as". They matter because we live in a sexist society and women are discriminated against because of our sex not how we "identify". They matter because men made up most of violent criminals. They matter because most victims of sexual violence are female and rapists are overwhelming males.

But you and others like you want we ignore all of this so not to hurt your feelings. Males who identify as trans, whether or nor they admit they are males, want to be treat as women, or a very special kind of women at least, even though your needs are very different from women. In practice, this means we have to ignore sex in all context where it matters, which will hurt women the most. It means we cannot accurately record sex anymore, which will alter how the data is interpreted. It means, women cannot organize politically to fight against sexism and misogyny. It means women are not allowed to assemble without the presence of males. It means women cannot name the source of sexim and misogyny. It means all the gains that women have achieved through decades and decades of fighting will be lost.

I don't care how people like you feel about your sexed body. The word woman is taken. If you don't want to be associated with people of your sex, you all can make up any word of your liking and start advocating for your particular needs in a way that doesn't undermine women's rights and without expecting women do the hard work for you.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Some people think the Earth is flat and there is a great conspiracy to hide this "fact". It doesn't make it true.

But that’s a factual question not a language question.

As to the rest. Inclusion of trans women doesn’t undo women’s progress in any of those areas. And the needs of a passing trans woman and a natal woman are functionally identical outside of a medical context.

You want to throw us to the wolves and act like it simply isn’t your concern when we get eaten. You act like trans people have the political capital to magically rewrite all of society to just add a third category to everything and increase all separate spaces by 50 percent. It’s functionally impossible. At least stop acting like we could just change shit like that. Even if every trans person decided to abandon self respect and start begging for a third option it just wouldn’t happen. We have a binary society and that isn’t going to be changed by a bunch of freaks you yourself admit most people hate.