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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (180 children)

You can’t just decide to change the basis of your personality and identity that is that deeply set.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (168 children)

You can if you understand that you’ve based your identity on a harmful falsehood.

It wouldn’t even be changing the basis of your personality. Woman is not a personality. It’s changing the phrasing you use to describe the basis of your personality. liking feminine things is not a personality. What you’re describing is not personality or identity. The things you like or gravitate toward are not personality or identity. So all that would actually be changing is the phrasing you use- to something that is actually an accurate description of the situation instead of a harmful falsehood.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (147 children)

No you can’t. What feels right to you isn’t something you can just decide to change. Those tracks are laid deep as kids and can’t be undone.

Could you force yourself to call yourself something that feels wrong and lie to everyone? Yeah maybe but that’s not a life anyone can stand for long.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (138 children)

If i called myself black but was actually not black and black people informed me that the basis for me calling myself black was rooted in pushing racist stereotypes about black people i would absolutely stop referring to myself as black. Because it’s the right thing to do. Males should have the same basic level of respect for females (and females for males) IMO.

It’s not a lie to anyone. It’s literally not a lie lol, even if it feels wrong to you personally.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (137 children)

Calling myself a man would Absolutely be lying for your benefit.

That label doesn’t fit. It would be as wrong as calling myself a chicken or a cat.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (103 children)

Calling myself a man would Absolutely be lying for your benefit.

That label doesn’t fit. It would be as wrong as calling myself a chicken or a cat.

Then call yourself a "non man" or something else. Make up a new term that more accurately describes yourself. That's a reasonable proposition. I could get behind that.

What's not reasonable is for some self-appointed males to keep appropriating the word "woman" and insisting the meaning has been change to include males like you and them. The word "woman" is taken, as are the words women, girl/s, female/s, mother/s, daughter/s, sister/s,etc. The attempts of some males to steal and change these words are insulting and harmful to those of us to whom these terms genuinely apply. Better to spend your energies inventing and popularizing your own brand-new terms to describe your reality than to try to force the world to bend to your will.

Also, sorry to inform you, but male activists' and allies' aggressive appropriation of the word woman, and constant insistence that women do as you/they tell us, doesn't make a compelling case for you and others in your position being a breed entirely apart from, and different to, others of your sex who got standard male socialization.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (102 children)

I actually wouldn’t mind that. If being “non-binary” wasn’t considered part man I could accept that. Non- man is a pretty ugly phrase but I’ve said before in a vaccum I wouldn’t need to be called a woman as long as I wasn’t called a man but we live in a binary society. Everything is split by sexes so you have to pick one and I’d rather be dead than a man so …

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

No one gets to pick their sex like if it were some clothes that you buy from a store. Sex is determined at conception depending on which sex chromosomes you have. Humans cannot change their sex, not naturally nor with the aid of medical technology.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Never said they could. I don’t deny I’m male. But that isn’t the question .

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Uhh, yes, it's part of the question because you're asking us we completely ignore your sex or the sex of other trans identified people in any context. All because you all don't want to be grouped with other people of your sex. You may not deny you're a male, but that it's meaningless if you expect we don't treat you like one.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (87 children)

Good to know. Some pro-trans orgs and people have tried to foist the label "non man" on female people against our wills. But it suits you much more than it does us.

BTW, the sex binary isn't a creation of "society" - it's nature's doing. Moreover, the issue with gender identity is gender - which isn't binary. There are all kinds of ways for an individuals to be.

There have always been guys who've been unconventional for their sex. But only in recent years have such males begun using their lack of affinity for the sex stereotypes associated with their sex as an excuse to make fatuous claims that they are of the opposite sex and to demand that female people accommodate them by giving up our rights to self-definition, safety, privacy, dignity, fairness in sports - and to make it impossible for girls and women to ever be away from males even for a moment.

Also, it's really not true that "everything is split by sexes" at least not in the West any more. Historically, girls & women were excluded from many spheres of life because of our sex, but that's no longer the case. Just a few things are split by sex nowadays, and it's where sex really matters: sports, toilets, locker rooms, change rooms, health care, prisons, etc.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (86 children)

Good to know. Some pro-trans orgs and people have tried to foist the label "non man" on female people against our wills. But it suits you much more than it does us.

I directly said that was an ugly term but whatever.

BTW, the sex binary isn't a creation of "society" - it's nature's doing. Moreover, the issue with gender identity is gender - which isn't binary. There are all kinds of ways for an individuals to be.

Treating everyone differently and separating everyone by sex is a creation of society. Gender isn’t just what you like. It’s identity.

There have always been guys who've been unconventional for their sex.

Good?

But only in recent years have such males begun using their lack of affinity for the sex stereotypes associated with their sex as an excuse to make fatuous claims that they are of the opposite sex and to demand that female people accommodate them by giving up our rights to self-definition, safety, privacy, dignity, fairness in sports - and to make it impossible for girls and women to ever be away from males even for a moment.

Define recently. Bottom surgery itself in 90 years old. And if you include non-binary identities like the Hijra literally thousands of years.

Also, it's really not true that "everything is split by sexes" at least not in the West any more. Historically, girls & women were excluded from many spheres of life because of our sex, but that's no longer the case. Just a few things are split by sex nowadays, and it's where sex really matters: sports, toilets, locker rooms, change rooms, health care, prisons, etc.

Bathrooms and changing rooms determine most of access to society. Health care determines whether we live or die and “trans broken arm syndrome” is very real. And putting trans women in men’s prison is basically guaranteeing they will be raped.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (85 children)

Bathrooms and changing rooms determine most of access to society.

Male people have never been denied toilets, change rooms, clubs, education, sports, the right to vote or anything else limiting their "access to society" based on their sex. Only female people have been. If some males don't want to share toilets and change rooms with others of your sex, then campaign for additional options for you. Stop invading and trying to take over girls and women's spaces.

Define recently. Bottom surgery itself in 90 years old. And if you include non-binary identities like the Hijra literally thousands of years.

By recently I mean since the mid-1970s - so a bit under 50 years, though the trans assault on women's rights has only gotten ferocious and gone mainstream over the past 20 years.

I don't think any surgeries done on "male to female transsexuals" 90 years ago are analogous to what's called "bottom surgery" today. The modern method of penile inversion to create a pelvic cavity was pioneered by Georges Burou in the late 1950s. However, male castration has been around for thousands of years.

As for the Hijra in India/South Asia - this and other similar categories in other cultures are special sex castes created for gay men to separate them from other men. Hijra have nothing to do with women.

putting trans women in men’s prison is basically guaranteeing they will be raped.

Male-on-male violence is for males to sort out amongst yourselves. Putting males who identify as trans into women's prisons doesn't just guarantee that women will be raped, it guarantees that women will be locked in with males who will menace, intimidate, bully, perv on and otherwise abuse them - and some women will become pregnant as a result.

Most males who identify as trans are sexually attracted to women. The ones who end up in prison have very high rates of sexual offending against women and children. In the UK, statistics released by the Ministry of Justice in 2020 show that more than 58% of the males who identify as trans incarcerated in prison in England and Wales in 2019 had at least one conviction for a criminal sex offense. This compares to 17% of the male prison population overall, and 3% of the female prison population.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

Even homosexual males who identify as trans are often misogynistic and full of rage towards women, and since they have male bodies and assets like male grip strength, upper body size and hand size, they can easily overpower females. These same features also give homosexual males a fighting chance to defend themselves if/when physically assaulted by another male. Women don't have that same fighting chance.

Also, trans-identified males are not the only ones who are vulnerable to physical and sexual assault by other males in prison. If this one group of guys should be put in with the women, why not all males who are skinny, frail, weak, good-looking, very young, old, sickly, physically disabled, mentally slow, traumatized, mentally ill and so on? Why not all the males who are child molesters or serving time for collecting images of children being sexually abused by other men? After all, "nonces" are at great risk of assault and rape by other males in prison too.

Finally, not all incarcerated homosexual males who today would fall under the "trans" umbrella are champing at the bit to be placed in women's prisons. Many prefer male facilities because in men's prisons they have a chance to have male-on-male sex and intimacy, to keep the dream of "meeting a guy" and falling in love with him alive, and to hook up IRL with another guy who will care for and protect them. In male prisons, these males often are valued for their ability to give blow jobs, their willingness to playact "in the female role" in penetrative penile anal sex, and their ability to smuggle contraband into and around the premises by stuffing it far up their bums. In women's prisons, these inmates aren't anywhere near as highly valued - and there's zero demand for their blow jobs, for them to be bottoms in anal-penile sex, or for their skills in using their anuses for smuggling.

Health care determines whether we live or die and “trans broken arm syndrome” is very real.

Women's health care needs have been ignored since medicine began. A lot more money and resources have been and are being put into "trans health care" than into areas like endometriosis, pregnancy complications, high maternal mortality, childbirth injuries, menopause and the health problems of elderly women. Now gynecologists are being expected to provide health care and prescribe and monitor the pharmaceutical hormones of trans-identified persons of both sexes. Males who identify as trans are also demanding that gynecologists - most of whom are female - provide them with care following genital surgeries, and prostate exams too - tasks that are in the wheelhouse of urologists and andrologists, and for which those sorts of specialists are specifically trained. This is diverting time, attention, resources and knowledge from female-specific health care and giving it to male and female trans people whose health care is experimental and who have health care problems that are of their own choosing, and which gynecologists are not trained to handle. It's also turning gynecology away from female-specific health care to males with male-specific health care issues. How is this just?

Lots of people have trouble accessing medical care for all sorts of reasons, and have our symptoms and problems ignored or pooh-poohed. Trans people have no idea what it's like to trying to obtain medical care for persons who have a rare or "orphan disease," or several rare and poorly-misunderstood medical conditions at once.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Yeah this is going to get exhausting so I’m gonna say the thing and have this conversation end:

It’s literally not a lie and nothing You comment back will ever make it a lie. Sorry 🤷‍♀️

Regardless of how you feel, it will never be a lie for a transwoman to call themselves a man. It will always be a lie for them to call themselves a woman. It is a fact that TW are male. It is a fact that males are men. Period. It is what it is. Facts don’t care about your feelings. Reality doesn’t either. And it seems biology gives no fucks as well. The dictionary definition still stands and until it doesn’t and there’s a law passed saying we have no choice but to accept you as a woman- it’s never going to be true that you are one. And even in those circumstances it still wouldn’t be true, the lie would just be forced. Nothing and no one in this world will ever make a transwoman not a man, less of a male, or close to being a woman/female. Because it is humanly impossible.

Imagine being a male telling females they would be lying to call themself a male because even though females are telling this male "that’s not what womanhood is, you aren’t actually identifying as us at all and you’re causing harm" the male thinks "why would I listen to females when they tell me that claiming to be a woman is both inaccurate harmful to them? Lol I know Im a woman because my genderfeels. I know better than females what it is to be a woman"

It’s pointless. Women are literally taking the time to explain how this is offensive and harmful and transwomen just don’t give a fuck. They never listen to women. It’s so exhausting and fucked up lol. It’s Also stereotypically the very M word they hate being associated with.

The label fits like a glove made to your exact measurements, baby.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (31 children)

Take issue with me calling myself a woman if you must but I’m not a man. To say so would be a lie in every level. It would be like calling myself a cannibal. Both disgusting and untrue.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Yeah. None of what you’ve said in your response is fact based. I’m speaking in fact. Not feelings, personal beliefs, or philosophy. Factually speaking all TW are men and male and are not women or female in any capacity.

The only lie is the denial of these facts. Acknowledging a male is a man is neither disgusting nor untrue. Nor is it in any way comparable to calling someone a cannibal.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

And you know is disagree. It’s not a “fact” that I’m a man. Because I’m not one. We are literally debating it right now and there isn’t an agreed test. This is a semantic question not a factual one.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Oh a fact can’t be a fact of you personally disagree?

I was unaware. I guess that undoes every argument I ever made here.

I also guess the earth is actually flat. There’s small portion if the population who believes this, so I guess the evidence to them contrary is irrelevant? Is that what you’re saying?

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

It's not a matter of debate whether men who say they are "women" are, in fact, men. That is so because they have a male body and this is something that can be easily and objctively determined. Biology doesn't care about how said males feel about their sexed bodies or how much effort they put into concealling their sex.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

You know people get treatment for personality disorders all the time, right? It’s absolutely possible to improve one’s understanding of themselves and one’s deeply seated, formative ideas that are shit.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You can’t change your core. You can learn to cope. You can learn to understand the state your in but you can’t untraimatize a brain.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Tell that to people with BPD who successfully do DBT. Tell that to trauma survivors who had defined themselves by their trauma and no longer do. Tell that to ED patients terrified and ashamed of having human needs, they’ll never learn better.

Goddamn, the way you insist that because you aren’t well, nobody else ever will be, is so fucked up I can’t even begin to tell you.

Thousands of traumatised people move on every day. Your choice to be miserable doesn’t make their successes a lie.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

You don’t stop having BPD or Being traumatized. You learn to cope or medicate but you don’t just stop. Coping mechanisms like say changing your body to better fit yourself for taking medication to feel better. Like transition.

I don’t know what you mean by the ED part. I’m assuming you don’t mean Ehlers Danlos.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Eating disorders, specifically the severe and enduring kind.

So, you’re telling me that even though I no longer think about my abuse, or respond like it’s going to happen, no longer have any trauma symptoms and have retrained my automatic thoughts so they are no longer ones that are an abuse response, even though two psychiatrists have since deemed me no longer meeting the symptoms of cptsd, I still have it?
You’re saying nobody ever actually heals, and all anybody can hope for is a coping tool Band-Aid?

You can say that but you need to stop claiming it’s the truth for anyone but you. It’s honestly really awful to say about others. People with personality disorders often work really hard for years to get better and you’re saying they’re all hopeless.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

eating disorders

Thank you. Kind of sad I didn’t think of that given I have one.

To the second paragraph I’m not telling you what you experince but basically yeah. No one ever heals. You learn to cope or medicate. You don’t fix a broken brain, you learn to work broken.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What a horrible thing to say to others. It’s potentially sabotaging recovery to tell someone they cannot get better. Shame on you.

[–]Juniperius 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sure you do. It's very common as people get older and go through treatment for their therapist to say they "no longer fit the diagnostic criteria for BPD," for example.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

You are just talking about changing a superficial label, I’m talking about the psychological structures that make someone use a label. I know it is wrong to be called a man just as I know it would be wrong to called anything else that just isn’t true. Just as I know woman doesn’t feel wrong.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

So you can’t change the harmful language you use to describe yourself to actual accurate language because you don’t have the psychological capacity to handle it, Not because the label is true?

Im actually fine with You acknowledging that.

Im not fine that that’s the situation as you’ve been done a huge disservice by the medical/mental health professionals who have assisted you. But I’m fine with leaving it here as you’ve acknowledged it’s a psychological issue.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

So you can’t change the harmful language you use to describe yourself to actual accurate language because you don’t have the psychological capacity to handle it, Not because the label is true?

I’m not actually sure what you are saying here. To be clear I don’t believe it would be accurate to call me a man.

But I wasn’t done a disservice. I mean sure there’s a psychological issue in play but transition still objectively improved my life.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Im saying you can’t change the languages because of psychological issues.

A mentally healthy person would never have thought they were a woman to begin with so clearly the reason you can’t use accurate language is because of your psychological issues.

If You honestly think you’re a woman you were done a disservice by every medical professional who helped you transition imo.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Language changes based on society.

But back to the point. Without transition I would be dead. I was an actively suicidal no functional mess. Now I’m not suicidal and get by. In what way is that a disservice to me?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Language hasn’t changed in the way you’re claiming tho.

If mental health professionals are advocating allowing specific patients to cling to and believe such an obvious falsehood then they’ve done a disservice to those patients imo. You may not be suicidal- over the few years we’ve been engaging it’s become abundantly clear that you have deep rooted mental health issues that haven’t been dealt with. But sure, calling yourself a woman fixed you lol

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I never claimed to be fixed. I claimed to be non suicidal and functional as a result of transition. I’m not mentally healthy but the machine is running even if it’s a slapdash repair.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

So transition made you personally feel somewhat better. It hasn’t done anything to help with your mental health otherwise being called a man wouldn’t be an issue for you. We end up here all the time. I don’t deny that transition helps alleviate some discomfort, it did nothing to actually help the main aspect of your mental illness- you literally think you’re something tou cannot ever be. That’s a disservice imo. We’ve talked about this over and over. My position won’t change. If trans people can’t understand they are the sex and gender they were born and transition was purely to alleviate dysphoria, they have been done a disservice by the medical community.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Actually, hold on-

Is this even true? Don’t some racist people stop being racist? Don’t some religious people stop believing or convert? aren’t there thousands of other instances where someone can come to change their feelings on something that influenced them their whole life (particularly in formative years)?

Unless you think that gender identity is just so much more of a powerful influence than religion or being raised in a racist environment? If that’s what you think, what is it that makes gender identity so much more significant than other things that contribute to how someone builds their identity and personality?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Is racism a core facet of their identity? Is religion? If it changes I would bet not.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah! The Not a true Scottman falacy! A true classic!

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Why not? Why is it impossible (despite evidence to the contrary…) for someone who based the core of their identity on racism or a specific religion unable (even tho, again there’s evidence that they can and do all the time and you’re ignoring that for the sake of your argument) can’t change?

So everyone whose racist or extremely religious can’t and doesn’t change? Ever? At all?

My husband’s uncle and I had this whole moment where he apologized to me for his racism and his behavior towards me. He did this because he knew I was pregnant with my first kid and he wanted to be there to see his nephew’s family. He claims to love my son and put years of effort into repairing our relationship and the one he has with my husband.

But nah… I guess he’s just a racist who lied. So he could build a relationship with people he hated. Idk people are weird.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I’m not saying he wasn’t a racist I’m saying if he changed that racism wasn’t a core component of his personality.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If think if you’re a skinhead with Nazi tattoos and memorabilia in your home it’s pretty deeply imbedded but say what you need for your argument lol

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I’m not saying he wasn’t a racist I’m saying if he changed that racism wasn’t a core component of his personality.

It's interesting that you're making these claims so soon after the death of former South African president Frederik Willem de Klerk. You think racism wasn't a core part of de Klerk's personality - and the personality of other Afrikaners of his and previous eras?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I have no idea who that is.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You're discussing racism and "identity" as though these are topics on which you have expertise, but you don't know who de Klerk is? Oy vey. That's really embarrassing. It's incomprehensible to me that anyone who supposedly cares about "diversity and inclusion" doesn't know who de Klerk is. Especially since a principle of gender ideology is that sex segregation is akin to apartheid.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I didn’t bring up racism. I don’t claim to be an authority on it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay. Apologies, then. But anyone in any fight for civil rights and concerned about "diversity and inclusion" really should know about the history and principal players in apartheid and especially in bringing apartheid to an end. It's not ancient history, after all. Apartheid was only instituted in 1948, and brought to an end in the early 90s.

The movie "Mandela and de Klerk" starring Sidney Poitier as Mandela and Michael Caine as de Klerk is is worth a look. It's on Amazon. In fact, if you want to learn about successful civil rights movements, I'd recommend watching every film about apartheid, from "Cry Freedom" to "A Dry White Season" "Invictus" to all the Mandela biopics. Mandela was really brilliant when it came to understanding "messaging."