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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

To me it’s always been intrinsic to dysphoria, but it seems there’s a push now for non dysphoric trans people as a thing. I don’t get it but I don’t want to be dismissive.

Even without dysphoria I suppose society teaches you at an early age what you should like. If you like what one gender is supposed to like and are constantly bombarded in formative development with that message isn’t it conceivable that you would develop a core facet of identity based on that environment?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t think that makes sense because there are plenty of female people who reject what’s typically pushed on females without identifying themselves as not being a woman/girl and the same for males. The issue, I think, is the idea that a collection of expectations or associations not even associated with you is a sense of identity. Girls and women don’t find their senses of identity in what we are told to like or be like. Nor do we know we are women/girls because of those things. I think a mentally healthy person would literally just accept that they like things generally associated with the opposite gender. PLENTY of people do exactly this. MOST people who gravitate towards things stereotypically associated with the opposite gender do exactly this.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

We all receive societal messagges about how we should be. We all get questioned when/if don't fit with was has been deemed acceptable for our sex. This is not a unique experience for people who identify as trans because no one is 100% masculine or feminine. Not to mention there are many contradictions in what is considered feminine or masculine. For instance, men are said to be the rational sex (yeah, right...) and the same time women are told not to dress a certain way because men are unable to control their sexual impulses.

Anyway, don't you understand how offensive is it that you think women (the adult human females, you know) are perfectly comfortable and happy with the way we are treated by society and the way we are told we should be?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Anyway, don't you understand how offensive is it that you think women (the adult human females, you know) are perfectly comfortable and happy with the way we are treated by society and the way we are told we should be?

I never said you were. I said dysphoric tendency plus social messaging that you are wrong for liking the things you like as your sex equals core identity change and indullible trans identity. I didn’t say anything about anyone else.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

You say the word woman feels right for you because your perceived lack of "masculinity", how is that not reducing women to stereotypes? Lots of women feel insecure for not living up to social expectations. Lots of women have a complicated relation with their body because of things like beauty standards, sexual objectifaction or sexual harrasment, etcetera. By reducing women to stereotypes and denyng how sex does matter your denying those facts. But if you don't think so, then I challenge you to define what a woman is. Let's see if you can do better than saying we are "non men" or "anyone who identify as such".

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

It feels right because it feels right. Like how your name sounds right. It just doesn’t produce an aversion. Not because I am effeminate. Man, by contrast, produces a visceral negative reaction.

I’ve given a list based definition before and you all said it wasn’t sufficient so I’m not going to give you one. Woman feels right, man feels disgusting. It’s really not more complicated than that for me at this point. Leave the analysis to people smarter than me.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Does it genuinely not matter to you that many women have said time and time again that the way you use the word "woman" is harmful and offensive to us? Do the people who this word naturally applies to not matter at all?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The word doesn’t naturally apply to anyone. But frankly I’m too tired for the language discussion at this point. To be put simply I don’t think calling myself a woman harms women. Because I am one.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

So… no. It doesn’t bother you that you offend and cause problems for women lol

It naturally applies to adult human females. You are not a woman. All the evidence in the world indicates that you aren’t and there is nothing to indicate that you are. Every time you call yourself a woman it’s a slap in the face to actual women. We can end it here.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Nice to know you think that we are so much below you that using the same word is a slap in the face.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's not a slap in the face because we think you are so much below us, FFS. It's because when you call yourself a woman you are taking away the word meant specially and exclusively for us. Leaving us with no word for ourselves, and thus no rights in law or life.

When you call yourself a woman, you are erasing the 6,500 physical differences between males and females that have a such a huge impact on the lives of girls and women.

When you call yourself a woman, you are denying us our "lived reality."

When you call yourself a woman, you are reducing us to a set of misogynistic stereotypes in your own head.

When you call yourself a woman, you are telling us that the ideas and fantasies in your male mind have more validity than the material reality of our female bodies.

When you call yourself a woman, you are forcing yourself into a category where you don't belong.

When you call yourself a woman, you are putting your boot on our necks.

When you call yourself a woman, you are engaging in a threatening male dominance display, marking our territory off as if it were yours by right.

When you call yourself a woman, you are telling us that we genuine women and what we want do not matter one iota - only what males like you and what you males want matters.

When you call yourself a woman, you are showing us that you as a male are boss, that you as a male rule the roost, and we women better STFU and lump it. Same old misogyny just dressed up in different clothes.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Lmao nice reach. Hope you stretched first.

You’re not below us. You’re just not us. Equal value. Different things.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I did not asked you how you personally feel about the words. I asked for a definition. If you want your identity be protected by law, then you should give a more concrete and verifiable definition that "it feels right". How do you justify that you and others like you be grouped together with women? What we do in have in common?

[–]Juniperius 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Wait, is dysphoria because of a brain structure or is it because of adults policing their children's clothing preferences? Or is it whichever is convenient for your argument at that precise moment? Or are you saying that the amount of white matter in the brain determines which clothes someone is destined to like?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I personally believe it’s from both. A structural predilection and societal pressure to conform to identity contrary to interest. But it needs more research.