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[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The actual harm done to transwomen is actually closer to ‘transwomen are extra extra gay’ so homophobes and men who feel tricked by non disclosing transwomen are the ones harming them. Not anyone who comprehends sex and doesn’t follow gender dogma.

I don't think this is true. Only a small minority of transwomen are sexually attracted to other males. And only a tiny proportion of those who are attracted to other males have any chance of going stealth because most don't "pass." Most males who have sex with transwomen know full well ahead of time that these persons are male.

When transwomen suffer physical and emotional harm it's almost always at the hands of others of their own sex and it most often occurs in the context of ongoing and mutual domestic violence and emotional abuse in relationships with lovers, roommates, male spouses, friends - in other words, with close intimates who know the transwomen well and presumably have no problem with them being trans. Or the physical and psychological abuse occurs in relationships connected to some other kind of illegal activity, such as drug dealing, criminal enterprise (gang muggings, theft, fraud schemes, etc) and sex work.

Whilst some transwomen who do "sex work" do get physically assaulted by johns, those johns are rarely strangers. And transwomen "sex workers" who suffer physical violence and verbal abuse often do so in altercations with other transwomen fighting over turf, a man, money, drugs, stolen items, insults, etc.

Sometimes the lovers, roommates, male spouses, friends, etc who cause emotional and physical harm to transwomen are trans themselves too. The last transwoman known to have died of homicide in the UK - which IIRC was in 2017 or 2018 - was killed by another transwoman.

There's always been a lot of infighting, jealousy, envy, covetousness and temper tantrumming amongst transwomen who hang out together such as those who are in the ballroom scene and live together in group "houses" or in the old-style transvestite gangs of yesteryear - and this has always resulted in a fair bit of slapping, punching, hair pulling, wig snatching, kicking, biting, stomping, knifing and so on.

Sadly, a lot of males who identify as trans are rageholics with poor or no impulse control liable to fly off the handle and go into violent attack mode at the slightest provocation - and they tend to hang out with and have intimate relationships with other males like themselves. These persons are very quick to take offense, and once they take offense they tend to get very angry, going from zero to 1000 on the rage scale in a flash. Lashing out in violence is "second nature" to many such persons, just as it is to a lot of males who don't identify as trans.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Only a small minority of transwomen are sexually attracted to other males.

I agree with that it isn’t like a big group of transwomen, but I feel like it is the group that actually experiences violence. I feel like that’s HP was explaining. Those other groups of transwomen talk about the violence like it could happen to them, but they aren’t at risk. Obviously male violence can come from circumstances other than stealthing though.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That might be clear to you, HP and me, but it won't necessarily be the case for readers not as familiar with these issues as we are. I think a lot of people would look at HP's claim that

The actual harm done to transwomen is actually closer to ‘transwomen are extra extra gay’

And interpret it to mean that most transwomen are gay males only more so and with extra steps.

Amongst the general public and in other forums I read, most people think that nearly all transwomen are gay males with extra steps. They have no idea the vast majority are heterosexual males with AGP. In fact, most people assume that once bog-standard heterosexual males like Jenner and Levine "identify as" the opposite sex, they all suddenly change their sexual orientation and want to have sex exclusively with men. It's been a big factor in how the public has responded to the Wi Spa flashing and Loudon County rape/sexual battery cases - most people seem to think the fact that the trans-identified males in each case are sexually into females means they cannot really be trans.

Also, we really have no idea about whether the majority of transwomen who do experience violence are gay males. No stats are kept on this. When victims of the "trans murder epidemic" are trotted out by lobby groups like the HRC, no mention is made of their sexual orientation. But having looked into the details of a number of cases, I know that some of the transwomen who've died of homicide in the US in recent years were heterosexual. A number of transwomen who've publicly claimed to have been physically and/or verbally abused for being trans or for cross-dressing have been heterosexual.

The fact is, most male-on-male violence occurs between heterosexual boys & men. I see no reason why this would change when some of them identify as the opposite sex. Domestic violence doesn't just occur amongst sexual intimates; it occurs between roommates, housemates, lodgers/tenants and landlords, and various family members. Brothers, fathers, grandpas, uncles, sons, cousins commit DV against other household members as often as spouses and lovers do. Two heterosexual transwomen who live, vacation, hang out or are in prison or a shelter together are just as likely to get into a physical altercation with one another as other males.

Moreover, a lot of abuse and violence that boys and men dish out that is wholly or partly motivated by homophobia is directed at males who are not actually homosexual. Lots of boys and men who are heterosexual have nonetheless been taunted, bullied, shamed, beaten up and raped by other males because those other males have perceived them as sissies, weaklings, losers who might possibly be homosexual - or because they perceive one single thing the victimized boys and men they pick on have said or done as "gay."

I can't find it now, but a number of years ago I read a PhD thesis published circa 2009 (or maybe it was 2006) that looked at violence against trans-identified males in the CA state prison system. It found, much to the researcher's surprise, that incarcerated heterosexual transwomen were at much greater risk of violence from other male inmates than the homosexual ones were. The homosexual transwomen tended to be more valued and protected a) because they were willing to give BJs to & have penetrative sex with the other men in prison, which they were often paid for, and b) due to having lots of experience as "bottoms" in anal sex, they were very good at smuggling drugs and items like cell phones into and around the prison, and keeping such items hidden when needed, by shoving them way up their asses. As a result, when behind bars the homosexual transwomen tended to be taken under wing and given protection by the meanest, most powerful men at the top of the prisoner hierarchy running the gangs inside. Often, they served as temporary "wives" for these men too.

As a result, the researcher found that most of the homosexual transwomen in CA prisons who were interviewed didn't want to be transferred to women's prisons - the transwomen who uniformly wanted transfer to women's facilities were all heterosexual. Part of this was because they wanted access to genuine females. But another reason was that they had been subjected to violence by other male inmates. Some had beaten up and/or raped, often with objects, to show them what being a "real woman" was like. The men who committed these acts against the het transwomen didn't feel the same compulsion to treat the homosexual ones the same way, because the homosexual trans inmtes were already open to, and well practiced in, taking what men see as the "the female role" in penetrative sex. Moreover, the homosexual transwomen saw it as their place and duty to provide other "manly" males with sexual pleasure, and to behave more submissively around/to macho men, whereas the heterosexual transwomen weren't as inclined because they were often manly men quite preoccupied with their own sexual pleasure themselves.

As I said, the researcher was really surprised to find all this out about trans-identified CA prison inmates. None of it fit with the preconceived notions that caused her/him (I can't recall the researcher's sex) to be interesting in doing the research study in the first place.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Aren’t HSTS TW more likely to be subject to violence though? I feel like I’ve heard about it a lot more often when stories of murders come out. Considering there are many more AGPs, shouldn’t it be the opposite if it was anywhere near balanced? The numerous 30-something computer programmer types act like they are at risk, but I don’t think they really are.

Thanks for sharing about the prison studies! HSTS being protected and not wanting to transfer in prison feels right to me.

People are totally uninformed about how most trans people actually are if they don’t have personal experience. I tried to explain to my husband awhile back that most transwomen are attracted to women and he had a hard time grasping it. Public opinion might change about self-ID and other nonsense when understand what it actually is…

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Aren’t HSTS TW more likely to be subject to violence though? I feel like I’ve heard about it a lot more often when stories of murders come out.

I don't think anyone can really say. We've all heard this is the case, especially "when stories of murders come out," but I think when you drill down into the particulars of what happened in each case murder this isn't necessarily borne out. But we really don't know because there aren't good records and stats.

In the US, HSTS who work as prostitutes FT, PT or just occasionally, probably have a higher likelihood of being subjected to violence by other males than they would if they didn't do "sex work" - but "sex work" is dangerous for everyone who does it. Also, there's no evidence that the HSTS who do "sex work" in the US suffer rates of violence and murder anywhere near the levels that prostituted girls & women do.

Males (whether or not they are HSTS) who do "sex work" tend to be at risk of being on the receiving and giving end of male-on-male violence for a host of other reasons - involvement in other criminal activity, often with scrappy partners/buddies in crime; drug and alcohol abuse and addiction; less-than-ideal housing situations or homelessness; stormy relationships with lovers, partners, family and friends; coming from and hanging out in high-crime "bad neighborhoods;" engagement in a lot of risky behaviors; owing other people money, etc. Add in the fact that many HSTS, like many AGPs, have serious mental health problems as well as lack of restraint and hair-trigger tempers, and combine this with the disregard many have for other people's boundaries; the jealousies and backbiting that many HSTS persons have towards other persons who are HSTS; their constant need for the "validation" and "gender affirmation" they crave and feel they will die without; and the unfortunate view a good number of TS people of both sexes hold that other people exist on earth mainly to provide them with the "gender affirmation" that the world owes them but cruelly doesn't provide enough of .. and it's no wonder that a lot of people in this population get into a lot of physical fights.

The constant victim narrative that TRAs tell trans people, and which they tell one another, is another factor. People who believe that the world is out to get them, want them dead, and that disagreement = death threat often have chips on their shoulders. Some going out spoiling for a fight and looking for offense. As I've said here before, many unfortunately have learned to see the world through bruise-tinted glasses.

My sense is that the belief that HSTS across the board are all unusually vulnerable to violence from other males might come in part from their own self-perception and fears, which in turn are greatly influenced by their searing memories of the traumatic taunts, bullying and assaults they received in childhood, adolescence and when younger adults.

Also, there's a lot of violence amongst gay males and MLM generally. And amongst adolescent and young males generally regardless of their sexuality and gender presentation. If we go by the murder rates, the rates of homicide suffered by black HSTS in the US seems considerably lower than it is for their same-age, same-nabe, same-economic class male peers. The levels of violence and murder amongst young black males in the US are incredibly high.

FWIW, in the 1990s when I lived in a neighborhood in NYC that had a fair amount of street crime - and quite a few black and Latino HSTS street walkers and hustlers who hung out in groups and committed crimes and menace together - the non-HSTS street toughs, muggers, drug dealers, burglars and such all steered clear of the HSTS because they were seen as unhinged and dangerous. HSTS who are "clockable," as so many are, tend to be given a wide berth by everyone because so many people are afraid of them. That's the kind of "transphobia" that never gets discussed or acknowledged, though.