Both: Is gender dysphoria a mental illness? & Is being trans a mental illness?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I’d say dysphoria is a mental illness

Being trans-

It’s just literally physically having "transitioned"

I think Gender Identity and maybe some other term I can’t think of is the belief system. I’m hesitant to say that being trans is the belief system because not all trans people view being trans the same way.

I do however think that the ideology surrounding gender identity is very cult like. So maybe not a mental illness on its own but a mentality/ideology that seems to only be held by mentally ill people.

Id separate the mental health state of people who understand they are the sex they were born and have just altered their appearance drastically to resemble the opposite sex from people who believe transwomen are women/transmen are men/non binary is real. But both of those types of people can and do transition.

Basically, I think anyone who transitions has some level of mental illness, but I think the ones who believe TWAW or believe in sex spectrums and gender identity are more deeply mentally ill.

I know some people think you can be trans without transitioning or because you want to, I don’t agree. That’s why I separate the state of physically being trans from the mental stuff.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Being trans-

It’s just literally physically having "transitioned"

But what is "physically having transitioned"? Taking testosterone, getting your breasts removed, wearing your hair short and putting "he/him" on your social media and emails? Taking estrogen, growing your hair long, getting FFS, having factory-made sacs of silicone gel or saline solution surgically placed in the chest, demanding that others call you she/her?

Also, as I am sure you know, your definition of what being "trans" is has nothing in common with the position of all the trans/LGBTQ lobby organizations, gender therapists, medical practitioners, trans activists and many trans-identified people nowadays. They say that being trans "is just literally" the following: "identifying as" the opposite sex, claiming to be of neither sex or a combo of both sexes, or having a "gender identity" different to one's sex.

They say further that being trans is entirely internal and requires making no physical changes, lifestyle changes, costume changes, changes to identity documents, changes in relationships, etc - whether temporary or permanent. They say the only thing that should be needed for a person to be recognized as legitimately trans by others and by society, and for them to acquire the protected characteristic of trans legally where such exists, is a verbal self-declaration that the person is trans. Today, the belief that person must change anything about themselves in order to be trans is considered transphobic "gatekeeping."

I know some people think you can be trans without transitioning or because you want to, I don’t agree. That’s why I separate the state of physically being trans from the mental stuff.

I get your POV, but in turn I think we need to engage the positions that gender ideology proponents are widely in agreement with and are putting forward. Your personal definition of trans is not the definition being used as the basis for the profound changes that have occurred, and are occurring, in law, public policy, sports regulations, school regulations and social customs. It's also not what is being taught to children and adolescents.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don’t know how to explain the difference between someone saying they want to/intend to transition and someone who has begun or "completed" transition. Or between either of those people and someone who does neither. Like I feel like it’s pretty self explanatory so I don’t know how else to word it?

I think trans people can have any hair style and even people who aren’t trans can put pronouns in bios so Im referring to actually altering your body. To me- Im not going to take some dude who just says he trans as seriously as like- Blaire White or someone else. Clearly there will be people mid transition where it’s not apparent yet- if they are actively taking cross sex hormones and are on track to "medically transition"- yeah, to me, they’re trans.

Also, as I am sure you know, your definition of what being "trans" is has nothing in common with the position of all the trans/LGBTQ lobby organizations, gender therapists, medical practitioners, trans activists and many trans-identified people nowadays. They say that being trans "is just literally" the following: "identifying as" the opposite sex, claiming to be of neither sex or a combo of both sexes, or having a "gender identity" different to one's sex

Sure… but I dont take anything they say seriously so why would I take this seriously? I’m not basing it on identity any more than I would base who a woman is on identity. There’s criteria for what makes a woman a woman. Why shouldn’t there be for what makes someone actually trans, as opposed to someone who wants to transition? People who call themselves "cis" acknowledge a gender identity. They clearly aren’t trans. Gender identity isn’t enough to make someone trans. Per their own logic.

They say further that being trans is entirely internal and requires making no physical changes, lifestyle changes, costume changes, changes to identity documents, changes in relationships, etc - whether temporary or permanent. They say the only thing that should be needed for a person to be recognized as legitimately trans by others and by society, and for them to acquire the protected characteristic of trans legally where such exists, is a verbal self-declaration that the person is trans. Today, the belief that person must change anything about themselves in order to be trans is considered transphobic "gatekeeping."

And I disagree. Because that doesn’t make any sense. I’m not basing my understanding of a mental illness on what the mentally ill people and the people who coddle them want us to think and want to be true for personal reasons.

I get your POV, but in turn I think we need to engage the positions that gender ideology proponents are widely in agreement with and are putting forward. Your personal definition of trans is not the definition being used as the basis for the profound changes that have occurred, and are occurring, in law, public policy, sports regulations, school regulations and social customs. It's also not what is being taught to children and adolescents

The thing is, those changes shouldn’t be based on what they think it means to be trans- it should be based on actual transition. (Eta for clarity- Im not saying any changes should be made, I’m saying they shouldn’t even be allowed to just include anyone who claims "trans!" To be included in these proposed laws/policies to begin with). I do not think anyone should accept their wide ass umbrella of who is and can be considered trans. That’s a huge part of the problem today. Trans should be clear, woman should be clear, man should be clear, sex should be clear. And the only way to make it all clear is to actually be clear on what everything means.

The question wasn’t even about this- it was if we thought being trans was a mental illness or not and I said no because to me being trans is not mental, it’s (sometimes) the result of a mentality, but that you can have the mentality and not be trans. And some trans people can hold different beliefs and still be trans. (And that that mentality seems to be held almost exclusively by mentally ill people). Nothing you said disproves that? It just seems like you’re saying I should use their language and definitions even though accepting their bullshit in the first place is what caused all of these issues.

Eta- I understand that irl we have to deal with "trans" referring to this "umbrella" that includes anyone who doesn’t consider themselves "cis", Im just answering the post, and to me, regardless of who the trans community considers trans (again- they consider men women, why are we listening to them?), that’s my answer.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

To me- Im not going to take some dude who just says he trans as seriously as like- Blaire White or someone else.

The thing is, those changes [to law, public policy, social custom, etc] shouldn’t be based on what they think it means to be trans- it should be based on actual transition.

So do you think that someone like Blaire White should be in girls'/women's change rooms, loos locker rooms, hospital wards, refuges, prisons, sports? That if/when Blaire is ever in a dorm, shelter, nursing home, rehab facility, recovery program, hospital with double rooms, someone like Blaire should be placed with a woman as a roommate?

What if someone like Blaire became a home health aide or nurse, should girls or women requesting a female for intimate care have to accept such from the Blaire-like person because that person has factory-made spherical implants in the chest and is good at enacting stereotypes of "femininity"?

Trans should be clear, woman should be clear, man should be clear, sex should be clear. And the only way to make it all clear is to actually be clear on what everything means.

So what is your clear definition of "trans" then? Since you mentioned Blaire White as an example of someone whom you seem to think is sufficiently "trans," I can only assume you mean someone who tries to give the outward appearance of being the opposite sex by aping the most superficial, regressive, sexist, offensive stereotypes of the sex they say they desire to be, and who has extensive cosmetic surgeries to alter certain aspects of their appearance, yet nevertheless chooses to keep his dick and balls. Coz that's Blaire.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t think Blaire White should be in womens bathrooms lol

I wasn’t answering in reference to laws or anything like that.

I think a trans person is a person who transitions physically to present as the opposite sex, something I clearly stated in my first comment on this post. you’re assumption of what I meant by trans is correct and Im obviously well aware that White is trans since I used him as my example- in comparison to some random dude who hasn’t done anything to transition but claims to be trans. I do not think someone who just says they’re trans is trans anymore than I think a man who says he’s a woman is a woman.

A question was posed, I gave my answer and explained. I only answered what I considered mental illness. Why you’re dragging all of this into my answer- I don’t quite understand.

In my response to you, I was saying I think the policies they push for should be on the basis of people who are actually trans*, these other people shouldn’t be considered trans or included in these bills/policies whatever because they literally aren’t. They may be dysphoric, they may have a fetish, they may have some other mental illness. That doesn’t mean they are trans. How, logically, can someone be trans without transitioning? Not how they feel, how can they BE?

*That doesn’t mean I think the policies should be passed. It means I think those policies should only include actual people who have transitioned, not self ID "trans" people. I did not articulate that clearly perhaps, but I think you should know by now I dont want any men in female spaces regardless of whether they transitioned or not.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also- just because I don’t think Blaire White should be in female spaces doesn’t mean he won’t be allowed to be.

So… if BW is going to be allowed in regardless of how I or any other woman or girl may feel, I’d for sure like to at least know that at the very least, most men won’t be allowed that access.

This is why the distinction I’m making (and that tras want to erase) matters.

If you’re willing to accept the idea that anyone who cries trans is trans, how do you justify not accepting when TW claim to be women, or TM claim to be men?

Again, the beliefs that these people who haven’t and won’t transition have that allows them to actually think of themselves as trans are the same beliefs that many people who have/will/are in the process of transitioning accept and that many people who call themselves cis accept. So it’s not the being trans thats the mental illness. It’s the mentality. That’s my point.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It’s just literally physically having "transitioned"

Not all trans people transition.

I think the ones who believe TWAW or believe in sex spectrums and gender identity are more deeply mentally ill.

I am a surgically transitioned nonbinary person. I have an opinion from an old-school senior consultant psychiatrist that I have no signs of any mental disorder. You are welcome to believe what you like, but I offer myself as a data point in refutation of your views. It is worth noting that autism spectrum disorders are highly overrepresented in the trans community, perhaps at the level of 25%(?) of the trans population.

I think sex is binary* and immutable. *Except for intersex people, who comprise around 0.018% of the population, according to Leonard Sax.

Cult-like leftist trans activists can be fanatical ideologues, but I would hesitate to call them mentally ill. Would we call the deeply religious or political ideologues mentally ill? QAnon? Anyone else who disagrees with me? No doubt there is some correlation with mental disorders or abuse history but correlation does not prove causation.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Somebody who doesn’t transition* but calls themselves trans still literally hasn’t transitioned…

That’s my point. There are many people who are mentally ill enough (or "woke" enough) to buy into the current mainstream trans rhetoric while not actually transitioning, some of whom consider themselves trans- Im saying just like a TW considers himself a woman but isn’t one, I don’t think someone who hasn’t done anything to transition is actually trans. I think being trans is the literal physical state and that’s why the dsm doesn’t classify it as a mental illness- it’s a physical, not mental, state. A technicality for sure, but I still think it’s a relevant difference.

I would absolutely call anyone who vehemently believes in multiple falsehoods even when there’s ample proof that their beliefs are false, and then tried to force those beliefs on everyone else, mentally ill. It’s not about agreement or disagreement- it’s about the refusal to accept fact based reality and the desperate "logic" offered to justify clinging to something that is obviously not true.

Eta- we can prove sex. We can prove non binary isn’t real, that TW aren’t women, and transmen aren’t men. Nobody can really prove the existence or lack of existence of any religious deity. So I’d say that people who buy into gender ideology are even more mentally ill than your examples. Because they deny proven reality.

If You believe a man can turn into a woman or just is one somehow because he says so- if you truly believe this, and aren’t just saying it to be woke, inclusive, or on "the right side of history", if you’ve had biology and anatomy explained to you and you still buy the BS, I do think there’s mental illness there somewhere.

I also think most allies and even most trans and NB people know their ideology is bogus.

*i dont mean full on bottom surgery transition, I mean at least hormones and whatever attempts at presenting as the opposite sex

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And frankly the fact that you actually think you’re non binary to me tells me you do in fact have a mental illness.

If You call yourself non binary because you like the label, I’d think differently. If You genuinely think you’re "non binary" then your therapist is incorrect in their assessment of you.

I honestly think anyone who "surgically transitions" ie alters a perfectly healthy body because their brain tells them it’s wrong (not just cosmetic surgery, but like trying to look like the opposite sex or eliminate your sexed traits- idk what you mean you’ve done) is mentally ill.

I also think a lot of mental health professionals are afraid to acknowledge that truth.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

DSM-IV certainly defined Gender Identity Disorder (and Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified for us nonbinary types) as mental disorders, and I was fine with that. DSM-5 unifies many of the concepts into Gender Dysphoria. There are still people who describe homosexuality as a mental illness; it was removed in DSM-II.

No one should be forcing their beliefs on anyone. I oppose ideology and encourage everyone to examine their beliefs.

The concept of gender identity seems to simplify explanations of various types of gender incongruence, as distinct from biological sex which we can measure. That said, everyone must remember that it is only a model, and just because it seems to explain things does not mean that it is a "real" thing. I have a physics background, and think of luminiferous aether as an example of a discarded model, and zero-point energy and dark matter where there is still no consensus.

My theory is that there is something like gender identity, analogous to sexual orientation, and both have strong roots in sexual dimorphism and evolutionary biology: the benefit of having these and them being strong is more important than their "accurate" alignment with reproductive goals in every case. A homosexuality and transgender identity could be described as spandrels.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t really know what point youre making with the DSM? My understanding is that being trans is not in the DSM- that’s all I said about it. Im not trying to be rude at all lol, honesty just wasn’t sure what point you’re making and I want to understand so I can respond. What I was inferring is that being trans is not in the DSM, but the mental health issues that most trans people seem to have are. Which is why I said being trans is not in and of itself a mental illness, but that the people who are trans are mentally ill.

IMO, Gender identity is stereotypes or the rejection of stereotypes or it’s just a phrase people seem to throw out when they can’t explain or answer how they identify as something they physically aren’t. I have never been given an explanation that wasn’t either "IDK I just know" or " insert gender stereotypes/associations/expectations"

My whole thing is just- gender identity is meaningless to anyone but the person who has it. Sex doesn’t change or go away because someone identifies as something other than their sex. Sex is what actually matters. Sex is what should be protected and considered over any gender identity.