Identity

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That lack of recognition might be requisite to developing gender dysphoria in the first place, maybe

See that’s a great point thst never occurred to me lol

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've seen that brought up before, because it gets to the crux of the issue: how do you know you are supposed to be that sex if you aren't that sex? And it seems like, based on my experience and what I've read/heard from others, that the reasoning is everything except for sex. And that's actually just ridiculous, like completely absurd. But that is our reasoning. Perhaps some people are just being intentionally combative when addressing that sort of question, but maybe most trans peoples' answers are just always going to be incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't experienced gender dysphoria, or at least gender confusion/dysphoria to that degree.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

the reasoning is everything except for sex. And that's actually just ridiculous, like completely absurd. But that is our reasoning.

Jane Clare Jones pointed out that the basic misunderstanding between genderists and the rest of society, particularly GC, is that for most people the words man, women, boy and girl refer to the physical sex of the body - but for genderists those same words refer to the sex stereotypes and sexist expectations associated with each sex - aka gender - and the ideas & "identity" that exist in the mind.

Unpicking "gender identity" even more, kids who develop gender dysphoria seem to grow up in settings where they are given the idea that there are two boxes of stereotypes - one labelled "girl," the other labelled "boy" - and that a fundamental task of childhood development & personality formation means deciding which box of stereotypes they as individuals prefer & feel most drawn to & in synch with. For whatever reason, they don't realize that most grownups don't fit either box, that they can pick & choose from the two boxes, or that the two boxes themselves can be ignored altogether - or smashed, stomped, set on fire and/or laughed at.

maybe most trans peoples' answers are just always going to be incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't experienced gender dysphoria, or at least gender confusion/dysphoria to that degree.

I think you're getting to something profound by adding in the word "confusion" there. My sense is that a core issue for a lot of kids who develop "gender dysphoria" is that they've been raised without an understanding of sex, biology and human bodies in general, and through no fault of their own they are unfamiliar with and uncertain about what used to be called "the facts of life," "the birds & the bees" and just "the basics." I think this deprives kids of a grasp of, and solid grounding, in reality, including their own material reality - and leads to a sense of self that is both disembodied and shaky. And a core bewilderment.

IMO, a further disservice has been done to people with gender dysphoria is labelling it "gender dysphoria." Coz in that word pairing, no one knows what either "gender" or "dysphoria" really means, and when you put the two words together the meaning of each one becomes even more obscure. Rather than elucidate and clarify, the term "gender dysphoria" seems intended to mystify and muddy.

I wonder if one of the reasons that people with gender dysphoria experience it as so painful is because the set of beliefs that GD is built on don't make much sense and are flimsy, and at some deep but unconscious or semi-conscious level kids with the condition know this. Kids & young people are desperately trying to make sense of themselves & the world - and everyone yearns for a worldview based on as firm a foundation as possible. But maybe at some level, kids with GD have a niggling sense that something is off, that it doesn't compute, as it were. And this leads to a great deal of anxiety borne of, as you said, confusion. Indeed, borne of perplexity and bewilderment.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sorry, Mark--this is obviously beyond a late response, but something about what you wrote has been bugging me for a while:

Why do kids who mistake gender for sex feel compelled to make such a choice? Is it because they don't recognize themselves or see themselves in members of the same sex that they see being a girl, boy, woman or man as just roles that one can choose? It seems like that would make sense if a child didn't understand the concept of biological sex. But then I go back to wondering why they feel compelled to make a choice at all.

Something I was wondering about, too, is whether all or most children first understand the concept of sex only through gender, so they only see 'girl', 'boy', 'woman' and 'man' as roles. I'm thinking that that might be true for most young children at first, but then I'm wondering if the only reason most kids don't end up conflating sex and gender the way the ones who go on to believe they're supposed to be or they are the opposite sex, is because they just can relate to members of their own sex. Even if a child wasn't aware of the concept of biological sex for an extended time and only differentiated males and females based on gender (stereotypes, expectations), they still probably would not develop gender dysphoria or that sort of confusion if they were more gender conforming.

Do all kids make such a choice? Or just dysphoric/confused ones?

Is it just gender nonconformity and lack of understanding of sex as opposed to gender that makes these kids feel like they have to recognize themselves as the opposite sex?

I wonder if one of the reasons that people with gender dysphoria experience it as so painful is because the set of beliefs that GD is built on don't make much sense and are flimsy, and at some deep but unconscious or semi-conscious level kids with the condition know this

I think you might be right. There shouldn't be any reason for kids to continue to believe they are or are supposed to be the other sex once they are made aware of and understand sex because that undermines the recognition of the sexes only through gender and gender roles. Why would children hold on to such a shaky idea? Is it that they feel their world just doesn't make sense unless they do? It really does seem like a decision made out of some kind of desperation, and wow does that make me sad.

(Again, sorry, I know this is so late, but I just couldn't help but ask/share)