Identity

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I've seen that brought up before, because it gets to the crux of the issue: how do you know you are supposed to be that sex if you aren't that sex? And it seems like, based on my experience and what I've read/heard from others, that the reasoning is everything except for sex. And that's actually just ridiculous, like completely absurd. But that is our reasoning. Perhaps some people are just being intentionally combative when addressing that sort of question, but maybe most trans peoples' answers are just always going to be incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't experienced gender dysphoria, or at least gender confusion/dysphoria to that degree.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The thing is, when you and peaking respond, I do get it. I don’t always agree, but I understand what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. The responses you both offer always acknowledge what gc or even people who aren’t gc but aren’t tras are always pointing out and you seem to be able to take women and our concerns/needs/feelings/differences into account. And that makes a huge difference in the quality of discussion as well as the ability to actually discuss anything at all.

But- and I don’t say this to disrespect any other posters here- you both come across as significantly more self aware and less ego driven (using ego in every sense of the word) than the other transwomen on the sub and the loudest of the online trans community. There’s a self awareness and societal awareness you both have that, in my experience a lot of transwomen from before (that “before” when this wasn’t a prevalent social and political discussion and TW and TM were allowed to be acknowledged as trans and not the sex/gender they transitioned to appear as) have that the woke trans community lacks. (I’m not trying to call either of you old lol, I always assumed the three of us are relatively close in age)

I understand why the woke trans community gets upset, but I think it’s because they know their logic is faulty and they’re defying fact. There’s hostility because you can’t convince everyone of something that just isn’t true. I know my comments can be cold and I can come across as if I don’t care (or apparently that I hate trans people…) but I do appreciate that if qt feels oppressed and rejected or invalidated by society it can’t feel good to constantly feel like you have to justify your sense of self to others, so I get the combativeness. The problem is that the issue is bigger than just a sense of self. It is impacting other people and their rights and safety, so they kind of do owe us (general society) an explanation that we can understand.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

the reasoning is everything except for sex. And that's actually just ridiculous, like completely absurd. But that is our reasoning.

Jane Clare Jones pointed out that the basic misunderstanding between genderists and the rest of society, particularly GC, is that for most people the words man, women, boy and girl refer to the physical sex of the body - but for genderists those same words refer to the sex stereotypes and sexist expectations associated with each sex - aka gender - and the ideas & "identity" that exist in the mind.

Unpicking "gender identity" even more, kids who develop gender dysphoria seem to grow up in settings where they are given the idea that there are two boxes of stereotypes - one labelled "girl," the other labelled "boy" - and that a fundamental task of childhood development & personality formation means deciding which box of stereotypes they as individuals prefer & feel most drawn to & in synch with. For whatever reason, they don't realize that most grownups don't fit either box, that they can pick & choose from the two boxes, or that the two boxes themselves can be ignored altogether - or smashed, stomped, set on fire and/or laughed at.

maybe most trans peoples' answers are just always going to be incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't experienced gender dysphoria, or at least gender confusion/dysphoria to that degree.

I think you're getting to something profound by adding in the word "confusion" there. My sense is that a core issue for a lot of kids who develop "gender dysphoria" is that they've been raised without an understanding of sex, biology and human bodies in general, and through no fault of their own they are unfamiliar with and uncertain about what used to be called "the facts of life," "the birds & the bees" and just "the basics." I think this deprives kids of a grasp of, and solid grounding, in reality, including their own material reality - and leads to a sense of self that is both disembodied and shaky. And a core bewilderment.

IMO, a further disservice has been done to people with gender dysphoria is labelling it "gender dysphoria." Coz in that word pairing, no one knows what either "gender" or "dysphoria" really means, and when you put the two words together the meaning of each one becomes even more obscure. Rather than elucidate and clarify, the term "gender dysphoria" seems intended to mystify and muddy.

I wonder if one of the reasons that people with gender dysphoria experience it as so painful is because the set of beliefs that GD is built on don't make much sense and are flimsy, and at some deep but unconscious or semi-conscious level kids with the condition know this. Kids & young people are desperately trying to make sense of themselves & the world - and everyone yearns for a worldview based on as firm a foundation as possible. But maybe at some level, kids with GD have a niggling sense that something is off, that it doesn't compute, as it were. And this leads to a great deal of anxiety borne of, as you said, confusion. Indeed, borne of perplexity and bewilderment.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sorry, Mark--this is obviously beyond a late response, but something about what you wrote has been bugging me for a while:

Why do kids who mistake gender for sex feel compelled to make such a choice? Is it because they don't recognize themselves or see themselves in members of the same sex that they see being a girl, boy, woman or man as just roles that one can choose? It seems like that would make sense if a child didn't understand the concept of biological sex. But then I go back to wondering why they feel compelled to make a choice at all.

Something I was wondering about, too, is whether all or most children first understand the concept of sex only through gender, so they only see 'girl', 'boy', 'woman' and 'man' as roles. I'm thinking that that might be true for most young children at first, but then I'm wondering if the only reason most kids don't end up conflating sex and gender the way the ones who go on to believe they're supposed to be or they are the opposite sex, is because they just can relate to members of their own sex. Even if a child wasn't aware of the concept of biological sex for an extended time and only differentiated males and females based on gender (stereotypes, expectations), they still probably would not develop gender dysphoria or that sort of confusion if they were more gender conforming.

Do all kids make such a choice? Or just dysphoric/confused ones?

Is it just gender nonconformity and lack of understanding of sex as opposed to gender that makes these kids feel like they have to recognize themselves as the opposite sex?

I wonder if one of the reasons that people with gender dysphoria experience it as so painful is because the set of beliefs that GD is built on don't make much sense and are flimsy, and at some deep but unconscious or semi-conscious level kids with the condition know this

I think you might be right. There shouldn't be any reason for kids to continue to believe they are or are supposed to be the other sex once they are made aware of and understand sex because that undermines the recognition of the sexes only through gender and gender roles. Why would children hold on to such a shaky idea? Is it that they feel their world just doesn't make sense unless they do? It really does seem like a decision made out of some kind of desperation, and wow does that make me sad.

(Again, sorry, I know this is so late, but I just couldn't help but ask/share)