Identity

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It seems easy for a child to believe they genuinely are, though, but maybe that's just me. I didn't have a reference other than superficial appearances (clothes, hair, grooming) for the difference between girls and boys, women and men, so there was no real reminder for me or reinforcement other than some adults trying to remind me that I was a boy. Children are really ignorant of much of the world due to the nature of human development, so magical thinking and that sort of behavior are common. So since I held that magical, little kid belief from so early for so long, that eventually when I did learn the difference and how I was definitively male, I couldn't just accept that because it undermined what I had grown up believing about myself on a fundamental level.

I'm not sure how people who feel they need to go to great lengths to pass understand they are the sex they identify as. I had always thought the whole point of transitioning was so one didn't have to try so hard to just live life. Not needing to really change much about myself to always pass was precisely even more evidence to me that of course I am supposed to be a woman.

Since I'm not a woman, I don't identify as a woman. I do identify with women, though, due to maybe seemingly shared commonalities attributed to sex (even if stereotypes, admittedly). Maybe identifying with something or someone then does lead to identifying as said thing or person? Or is that what you were saying?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It seems easy for a child to believe they genuinely are, though, but maybe that's just me

If nobody ever explains sex to them, yes. But people- literally everyone in the kid’s life- would have to bend over backwards to hide any evidence of sex existing

So since I held that magical, little kid belief from so early for so long, that eventually when I did learn the difference and how I was definitively male, I couldn't just accept that because it undermined what I had grown up believing about myself on a fundamental level.

Nobody ever explained sex to you as a kid? Not even just about your own body? I’m honestly just interested in a convo not trying to make a point or anything lol

Since I'm not a woman, I don't identify as a woman. I do identify with women, though, due to maybe seemingly shared commonalities attributed to sex (even if stereotypes, admittedly). Maybe identifying with something or someone then does lead to identifying as said thing or person? Or is that what you were saying?

What I’m saying is I think TW can connect with some women on some things. Twaniac pointed out in a thread that one of the posters who said they connected with girls as a kid was actually connecting with specific girls (girls who had similar interests), not just girls in general. I think TW can connect with any woman (or man) who shares similar interests. And possibly admittedly it’s likely more women will share certain interests that TW seem to generally cite as things they knew meant they were women, worded that horribly sorry. Can try to articulate better lol

My point is that I think TW can identify with their understanding of the expectations/roles associated with women, and that in all fairness it’s likely those expectations and roles may help them find friendships and connections with women and other TW or some gay men more easy to form than with other males. But I don’t think there’s really anything exclusive between only TW and women. I do get how TW may convince themselves that this means they identify with or as women, but it truly means they have similarities with some people, of either sex. Which is normal lol except for the conclusion that that means they aren’t the sex/gender they are. I think what I’m saying is that I understand how some TW can think they identify with or as women, but what they are identifying with or as is not actually relevant to being a woman

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If nobody ever explains sex to them, yes. But people- literally everyone in the kid’s life- would have to bend over backwards to hide any evidence of sex existing

True, I would think you're mostly right about that for sure

Nobody ever explained sex to you as a kid? Not even just about your own body?

No, not that I'm aware of. Maybe that isn't true, but I genuinely am unaware if they did. For context, I grew up an only child in the 90s in a rural US Midwest home in a very socially conservative environment without many people, let alone children, around. We didn't have a computer or the internet until after I was like 10 or 11, and we never had cable TV so there wasn't much opportunity to be exposed to that kind of learning.

My point is that I think TW can identify with their understanding of the expectations/roles associated with women, and that in all fairness it’s likely those expectations and roles may help them find friendships and connections with women and other TW or some gay men more easy to form than with other males. But I don’t think there’s really anything exclusive between only TW and women. I do get how TW may convince themselves that this means they identify with or as women, but it truly means they have similarities with some people, of either sex. Which is normal lol except for the conclusion that that means they aren’t the sex/gender they are. I think what I’m saying is that I understand how some TW can think they identify with or as women, but what they are identifying with or as is not actually relevant to being a woman

Well said, that might be the most accurate way to elucidate this: issues women face directly as a result of their sex might resemble some issues that transwomen face as well, but it wouldn't be for the exact same reason. For women, it's because of their biology, their sex, and for transwomen it's because of homophobia or misplaced misogyny, and maybe many if not most transwomen draw the conclusion that we're receiving what appears to be similar treatment and share what appears to be similar experiences, but they aren't for the same reason, so that's where transwomen mistakenly believe it is. That lack of recognition might be requisite to developing gender dysphoria in the first place, maybe.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

That lack of recognition might be requisite to developing gender dysphoria in the first place, maybe

See that’s a great point thst never occurred to me lol

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It would make sense why GC and QT butt heads so so much on this stuff. If most trans people were capable of seeing things from the GC perspective, I think the 'illusion' would cease to exist and it's hard to imagine they would stay trans, or at least think of themselves and others as belonging to another sex or being sexless. Gender dysphoria seems to thrive on the misunderstanding, which is what the previous diagnosis of gender identity disorder highlighted. Part of it is our inaccurate or incomplete understanding of sex, sex role stereotypes and our own sex. I say 'our' as in trans people, I guess that's generalizing, but from my own perspective which I see as very warped I feel like that's maybe the case. But maybe that's totally off, too lol

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I've seen that brought up before, because it gets to the crux of the issue: how do you know you are supposed to be that sex if you aren't that sex? And it seems like, based on my experience and what I've read/heard from others, that the reasoning is everything except for sex. And that's actually just ridiculous, like completely absurd. But that is our reasoning. Perhaps some people are just being intentionally combative when addressing that sort of question, but maybe most trans peoples' answers are just always going to be incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't experienced gender dysphoria, or at least gender confusion/dysphoria to that degree.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The thing is, when you and peaking respond, I do get it. I don’t always agree, but I understand what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. The responses you both offer always acknowledge what gc or even people who aren’t gc but aren’t tras are always pointing out and you seem to be able to take women and our concerns/needs/feelings/differences into account. And that makes a huge difference in the quality of discussion as well as the ability to actually discuss anything at all.

But- and I don’t say this to disrespect any other posters here- you both come across as significantly more self aware and less ego driven (using ego in every sense of the word) than the other transwomen on the sub and the loudest of the online trans community. There’s a self awareness and societal awareness you both have that, in my experience a lot of transwomen from before (that “before” when this wasn’t a prevalent social and political discussion and TW and TM were allowed to be acknowledged as trans and not the sex/gender they transitioned to appear as) have that the woke trans community lacks. (I’m not trying to call either of you old lol, I always assumed the three of us are relatively close in age)

I understand why the woke trans community gets upset, but I think it’s because they know their logic is faulty and they’re defying fact. There’s hostility because you can’t convince everyone of something that just isn’t true. I know my comments can be cold and I can come across as if I don’t care (or apparently that I hate trans people…) but I do appreciate that if qt feels oppressed and rejected or invalidated by society it can’t feel good to constantly feel like you have to justify your sense of self to others, so I get the combativeness. The problem is that the issue is bigger than just a sense of self. It is impacting other people and their rights and safety, so they kind of do owe us (general society) an explanation that we can understand.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

the reasoning is everything except for sex. And that's actually just ridiculous, like completely absurd. But that is our reasoning.

Jane Clare Jones pointed out that the basic misunderstanding between genderists and the rest of society, particularly GC, is that for most people the words man, women, boy and girl refer to the physical sex of the body - but for genderists those same words refer to the sex stereotypes and sexist expectations associated with each sex - aka gender - and the ideas & "identity" that exist in the mind.

Unpicking "gender identity" even more, kids who develop gender dysphoria seem to grow up in settings where they are given the idea that there are two boxes of stereotypes - one labelled "girl," the other labelled "boy" - and that a fundamental task of childhood development & personality formation means deciding which box of stereotypes they as individuals prefer & feel most drawn to & in synch with. For whatever reason, they don't realize that most grownups don't fit either box, that they can pick & choose from the two boxes, or that the two boxes themselves can be ignored altogether - or smashed, stomped, set on fire and/or laughed at.

maybe most trans peoples' answers are just always going to be incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't experienced gender dysphoria, or at least gender confusion/dysphoria to that degree.

I think you're getting to something profound by adding in the word "confusion" there. My sense is that a core issue for a lot of kids who develop "gender dysphoria" is that they've been raised without an understanding of sex, biology and human bodies in general, and through no fault of their own they are unfamiliar with and uncertain about what used to be called "the facts of life," "the birds & the bees" and just "the basics." I think this deprives kids of a grasp of, and solid grounding, in reality, including their own material reality - and leads to a sense of self that is both disembodied and shaky. And a core bewilderment.

IMO, a further disservice has been done to people with gender dysphoria is labelling it "gender dysphoria." Coz in that word pairing, no one knows what either "gender" or "dysphoria" really means, and when you put the two words together the meaning of each one becomes even more obscure. Rather than elucidate and clarify, the term "gender dysphoria" seems intended to mystify and muddy.

I wonder if one of the reasons that people with gender dysphoria experience it as so painful is because the set of beliefs that GD is built on don't make much sense and are flimsy, and at some deep but unconscious or semi-conscious level kids with the condition know this. Kids & young people are desperately trying to make sense of themselves & the world - and everyone yearns for a worldview based on as firm a foundation as possible. But maybe at some level, kids with GD have a niggling sense that something is off, that it doesn't compute, as it were. And this leads to a great deal of anxiety borne of, as you said, confusion. Indeed, borne of perplexity and bewilderment.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sorry, Mark--this is obviously beyond a late response, but something about what you wrote has been bugging me for a while:

Why do kids who mistake gender for sex feel compelled to make such a choice? Is it because they don't recognize themselves or see themselves in members of the same sex that they see being a girl, boy, woman or man as just roles that one can choose? It seems like that would make sense if a child didn't understand the concept of biological sex. But then I go back to wondering why they feel compelled to make a choice at all.

Something I was wondering about, too, is whether all or most children first understand the concept of sex only through gender, so they only see 'girl', 'boy', 'woman' and 'man' as roles. I'm thinking that that might be true for most young children at first, but then I'm wondering if the only reason most kids don't end up conflating sex and gender the way the ones who go on to believe they're supposed to be or they are the opposite sex, is because they just can relate to members of their own sex. Even if a child wasn't aware of the concept of biological sex for an extended time and only differentiated males and females based on gender (stereotypes, expectations), they still probably would not develop gender dysphoria or that sort of confusion if they were more gender conforming.

Do all kids make such a choice? Or just dysphoric/confused ones?

Is it just gender nonconformity and lack of understanding of sex as opposed to gender that makes these kids feel like they have to recognize themselves as the opposite sex?

I wonder if one of the reasons that people with gender dysphoria experience it as so painful is because the set of beliefs that GD is built on don't make much sense and are flimsy, and at some deep but unconscious or semi-conscious level kids with the condition know this

I think you might be right. There shouldn't be any reason for kids to continue to believe they are or are supposed to be the other sex once they are made aware of and understand sex because that undermines the recognition of the sexes only through gender and gender roles. Why would children hold on to such a shaky idea? Is it that they feel their world just doesn't make sense unless they do? It really does seem like a decision made out of some kind of desperation, and wow does that make me sad.

(Again, sorry, I know this is so late, but I just couldn't help but ask/share)