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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

In the process, you are telling women that there is nothing about female humans that makes us distinct from and different to male humans.

I’m expressly not. I’ve never claimed to be female. Just a woman.

Women didn't invent biological sex, or make it binary and immutable. Your beef is with biology, nature and evolution. It's not the fault of women, of GC, or of anyone else who doesn't believe in QT and the primacy of gender that you are not and can't become what you desire to be.

You may not have invented it but you are saying biology should control our whole lives.

BTW, lots of people are deeply unhappy with the bodies they/we were born with and are stuck with. Many people feel enormous distress looking in a mirror, bathing, getting dressed, going out in public, getting through the day because of deep-seated bodily issues.

And they are allowed to fix them without being persecuted.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I’m expressly not. I’ve never claimed to be female. Just a woman.

Oy vey, there you go again. When you claim to be a woman, you are divorcing "woman" from being female, one of the core defining characteristics.

To be a woman, a person has to meet three essential criteria - be an adult, be human and be female. A person can't be a woman without meeting ALL three of these criteria, without having ALL three of the essential core characteristics. By claiming you are a woman, you are saying a woman can be a male adult human just as much as a female one. Which is fundamentally changing the definition of woman and erasing and eliding all the ways in which women are a distinct, separate sex to adult human males.

This is telling women that we are not distinct or different from males. Worse, it's telling us that we are simply an idea in men's minds, figments of male imagination.

You may not have invented it but you are saying biology should control our whole lives.

Can you show me where I or any other "GC" feminist has said any such thing? I believe biology determines sex - just as biology determines other basics like our need for water, food and air - and just as biology means we all are mortal and that whilst we alive, we are vulnerable to disease and injury.

But except in specific situations where biological sex is a factor - such as in health care, sports, safeguarding and facilities and provisions meant to accommodate male or female anatomy and physiology - I don't believe that people's options in life should be limited or controlled by their/our sex. I'm all for men doing child care, being SAHDs and working as nurses and women not having children, and working as police officers and air traffic controllers. If men truly could get pregnant, carry a baby to term, undergo labor and childbirth, and breast feed, I'd happily have shared the burden with the man I procreated with.

At the same time, however, I believe that sex is an important physical reality that matters a great deal to most people, that it's immutable, that it can't be waved away by choosing to "identify as" the opposite-sex, and that it has consequences that affect our lives in myriad ways large and small from soon after conception to our dying days. Whereas you prefer to take the position that the physical reality of your sexed body is far less important than your desire to have a body of the opposite sex, and that what matters most is the identity claims you make about yourself based on what you wish were true rather what is objectively, verifiably and measurably true.

Moreover, you appear to believe that cosmetic changes made to the human body can turn a male person into the opposite sex - or at least into a outwardly-appearing facsimile of the opposite sex that in your opinion is close enough to the real thing in the ways that count to you as to be pretty much the same, but again "the same" only in the superficial ways that matter in the eyes of some males.

And they are allowed to fix them without being persecuted.

People who identify as trans today are able to get all sorts of extensive cosmetic body modifications paid for by government-funded national and state health services and/or by private medical insurance. All they need is a diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" - which in countries like the USA and many European nations is one of the easiest Dx's to get nowadays, and is also easy to get in places like the UK and Canada by going to private HCPs rather than through the state health care system. Moreover, when trans people make these body modifications, even the most superficial ones, they are widely and effusively praised and celebrated for it. This has been the case for quite a while now.

When Bruce Jenner became Caitlyn in 2015, Jenner immediately got featured on the covers of glossy magazines, given a TV show, and was showered with awards, including "woman of the year" and the Arthur Ashe "courage" award. How is this persecution?

When a career criminal with multiple convictions and incarcerations for fraud and theft (including of social security and welfare checks from the elderly and poor) who never worked an "honest" job named Kricket "Thunderpussy" Nimmons became the first person to undergo "MtF" surgery on the genitals to affirm Nimmons' identity as a woman that was fully paid for by NY State Medicaid in 2015, Nimmons' story was covered in a lengthy, fawning story and video, complete with professional photo styling, by the NY Times that was featured on the front page of the "paper of record." Nimmons also got a NYC subsidized apartment, government financial support and special health services because Nimmons is black, identifies as trans and has HIV. Nimmons got paid to be a professional "trans advocate" by a taxpayer-funded organization too. Moreover, Nimmons got free legal representation from not just the ACLU, but from a "white shoe" Park Avenue law firm. How is this persecution?

The NYT reported that because Nimmons was habitually non-compliant with the medical regimen meant to keep Nimmons' HIV in check and also did not comply with the post-op instructions after the "sex reassignment" surgery Nimmons got for free courtesy of taxpayers, Nimmons has required extensive hospital stays that could have been prevented - and also had to have the "SRS" redone. All at taxpayer's expense. How is this persecution?

Even back in the 1970s males who identified as trans weren't necessarily "persecuted" for it. When acclaimed historian, journalist, adventurer and father of 5 James Morris became Jan and wrote the best-selling 1974 memoir Conundrum, Morris was praised and accepted. Before Morris died in 2020 at age 94, Morris said never once in nearly 50 years living as someone publicly known to be trans had Morris suffered any discrimination or mistreatment for the identity Morris adopted and the surgeries and other body mods that Morris underwent.

Similarly, in the 1970s when ace male athlete, respected physician and father Richard Raskin, who grew up with every kind of white male privilege imaginable, became Renee Richards, persecution did not follow. Not even when one of the things Richards did immediately after "becoming a woman" was to sue - and win - the right to play professional women's tennis at a time when women were just starting to get a chance to have our own sports leagues. How exactly does this amount to "being persecuted"?

By contrast, people with disabling physical health conditions and mental health conditions that aren't "gender dysphoria" have to go through enormous hoops and intensive scrutiny in order to qualify for government financial support programs, medical interventions and equipment - and depending on the jurisdiction, people with disabilities often or customarily have to do this at regular intervals throughout their lives in order to keep qualifying for the programs they rely on.

Similarly, people with truly diseases that are severely life-limiting and life-threatening have to go through extensive diagnostic testing and provide tons of proof in the form of paperwork, scan films, lab results, etc and go through physical exams, personal interviews and sometimes even home visits in order to get their treatments and accommodations covered by public health systems like the NHS or private health insurers. But even then, most people have access to only some of the treatments available, rather than the treatment they prefer on demand. Moreover, before getting cleared for invasive and costly treatments like surgeries, many people have to try all other less expensive and non-invasive treatments first.

I don't believe anyone should be "persecuted" for having a physical or mental illness, or because they decide to claim they are something they are not. But the self-pitying way you constantly claim that trans people are uniquely put upon and that you suffer pain and persecution far worse than anyone else in the world is tiresome - and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

To be a woman, a person has to meet three essential criteria - be an adult, be human and be female.

According to you. And if that defines you as a woman cool but stop using your definitions to define me. I consider being called a man an egregious insult but you aren’t shy about plastering it on me. Define yourself stop trying to define me by an accident if genetics instead of who I am as a person.

Can you show me where I or any other "GC" feminist has said any such thing?

How about the next paragraph?

But except in specific situations where biological sex is a factor - such as in health care, sports, safeguarding and facilities and provisions meant to accommodate male or female anatomy and physiology - I don't believe that people's options in life should be limited or controlled by their/our sex.

Except for every facet of social life …

I'm all for men doing child care, being SAHDs and working as nurses

Except you explicitly contradicted this when you said health care should be controlled by sex.

At the same time, however, I believe that sex is an important physical reality that matters a great deal to most people, that it's immutable, that it can't be waved away by choosing to "identify as" the opposite-sex, and that it has consequences that affect our lives in myriad ways large and small from soon after conception to our dying days. Whereas you prefer to take the position that the physical reality of your sexed body is far less important than your desire to have a body of the opposite sex, and that what matters most is the identity claims you make about yourself based on what you wish were true rather what is objectively, verifiably and measurably true.

I’m talking about gender. And yes we should be defined by our minds and personalities and what actions we take rather than be defined by the genes that happened to settle into our cells. Because people are more than just our genes.

Moreover, you appear to believe that cosmetic changes made to the human body can turn a male person into the opposite sex

I don’t

or at least into a outwardly-appearing facsimile of the opposite sex that in your opinion is close enough to the real thing in the ways that count to you as to be pretty much the same,

If they are lucky

but again "the same" only in the superficial ways that matter in the eyes of some males.

And females. Don’t act like trans men and t trans inclusive natal women don’t exist.

People who identify as trans today are able to get all sorts of extensive cosmetic body modifications paid for by government-funded national and state health services and/or by private medical insurance.

My transition has cost me more than 15000 out of pocket all told. And I was one of the few lucky enough to get partial coverage. You grossly overestimate the level of support from insurance for trans people.

Moreover, when trans people make these body modifications, even the most superficial ones, they are widely and effusively praised and celebrated for it.

It also cost me my family and career. Not to mention the menacing, harassment, and physical assault. I don’t know what dreamland you are living in where being trans is praised but at the minimum it isn’t universal. Do you have any concept of how much easier my life would be if I could have managed not to transition? But I couldn’t because dysphoria is worse.

When Bruce Jenner became Caitlyn in 2015, Jenner immediately got featured on the covers of glossy magazines, given a TV show, and was showered with awards, including "woman of the year" and the Arthur Ashe "courage" award. How is this persecution?

Rich white people get good treatment. Shocking.

Some people get good lives. That’s the hope. Most of us don’t get that. But it beats the alternative and a few winners don’t mean the rest of us barely get to live in the world.

By contrast, people with disabling physical health conditions and mental health conditions that aren't "gender dysphoria" have to go through enormous hoops and intensive scrutiny in order to qualify for government financial support programs, medical interventions and equipment - and depending on the jurisdiction, people with disabilities often or customarily have to do this at regular intervals throughout their lives in order to keep qualifying for the programs they rely on.

Literally nothing is different for trans people. Medicaid covers srs but you still have to have separately qualified. And ssi doesn’t give you a stipend just because you are trans.

Similarly, people with truly diseases that are severely life-limiting and life-threatening have to go through extensive diagnostic testing and provide tons of proof in the form of paperwork, scan films, lab results, etc and go through physical exams, personal interviews and sometimes even home visits in order to get their treatments and accommodations covered by public health systems like the NHS or private health insurers. But even then, most people have access to only some of the treatments available, rather than the treatment they prefer on demand. Moreover, before getting cleared for invasive and costly treatments like surgeries, many people have to try all other less expensive and non-invasive treatments first.

You can get a depression, bipolar, bps, and many other mental diagnosis without any physical testing. Gender dysphoria is no different.

But the self-pitying way you constantly claim that trans people are uniquely put upon and that you suffer pain and persecution far worse than anyone else in the world is tiresome

Not a thing I’ve ever said. Trans people get shit on sure but I don’t play the oppression Olympics. Black trans women ok the whole are worse off than white trans women because race is a factor in marginalization as well as gender. There are people worse off than me but that doesn’t mean that trans people are marginalized and actively persecuted. If you can’t admit that simple fact there’s no point in talking at all.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

According to you. And if that defines you as a woman cool but stop using your definitions to define me. I consider being called a man an egregious insult but you aren’t shy about plastering it on me. Define yourself stop trying to define me by an accident if genetics

No, not according to me. According to the whole world. I did not invent the definition of woman, just as I did not invent the definition of cow and bull, hen and rooster/cock, goose and gander.

You are the one inventing your own individual definition of woman. And when women say no, you can't have that word, it's taken and it belongs to us, you can't have it, then you come back and insist again and again that woman is your word, that you are going to define it how you want in a way that suits you, and you are going to take it and call it your own because you are the boss. Sorry, this sounds like male entitlement to me!

BTW, I have never called you a man. I have noted that you are of the male sex, you only seem to care about others of the male sex, and you seem to have lot of male entitlement reflective of male socialization and feelings of supremacy.

Whist we all might indeed have ended up as male or female because of "accidents of genetics" like you say, our genetics are not incidental to our physical reality - at all.

Except you explicitly contradicted this when you said health care should be controlled by sex.

But believing that sex matters in health care isn't the same as saying males shouldn't be nurses, SAHDs or do childcare, LOL. It means knowing that the lab reference ranges for males and females in many areas are entirely different, that males and females having heart attacks display different symptoms, that men have twice the chance of needing hospitalization and dying from COVID than women do, and that there are some health conditions - for example, enlarged prostate, hemophilia, pregnancy and cervical cancer - that affect only one sex and not the other. My hunch is that the only reason you are comfortable with the idea of sex being ignored in medical care is because you are of the sex which has traditionally been considered the human norm, that's been focused on in medical research over history, that drugs and treatments were historically tested on, and whose medical problems have received full attention and priority.

You really think all patients should have to answer questions about menstrual and childbearing history when seeking medical care? That before clearing males for X-rays, they should all be given pregnancy tests? That medications and doses should be prescribed without heed to a patient's sex?

You can get a depression, bipolar, bps, and many other mental diagnosis without any physical testing. Gender dysphoria is no different.

But no health care system or insurance plans advises or pays for people with these mental health conditions to attempt to treat those conditions by getting cosmetic surgeries and procedures or by taking massive amounts of sex hormones their bodies are not meant to produce or handle. People with anorexia aren't given liposuction as a treatment. People with depression aren't sent to the cosmetic surgeon to get their mouth sewn into the shape of a smile. People with other kinds of body dysmorphia are not given amputations and augmentations.

Also, people seeking diagnosis for many serious mental health conditions with a competent and thorough diagnostician do have to get physically checked to rule out physical causes for their symptoms. In severe and intractable depression, for example, it's common to do blood work, CT brain scans, neurological testing, and (in the past) the Schilling test, etc to make sure that the underlying issue isn't thyroid dysfunction, a brain tumor, pernicious anemia/B-12 deficiency, Alzheimer's, etc.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

Once the male entitlement accusations start, I’m out.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Why? Are you unable to address them?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Because literally anything I say will just be responded to with “male entitlement”. It’s a pointless conversation.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

So… can you explain how it’s not male entitlement? You accuse us of all types of hatred and transphobia and we always are able to address it. You always end conversations by pretending we’ve said something so egregious you can’t be bothered to respond, but you seem to only say it when you have run out of argument for that particular thread. Because you have no problem responding to the same people on other posts.

It’s not my convo, I just jumped in. But I challenge you to actually address ALL points made to you for like the next week. You can challenge me back for something if you want lol

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

You just deny it. Nothing is addressed. I believe you hate trans people. You say you don’t. You say I’m an entitled male acting in male entitlement, I say that’s not the case. You act like different things are happening there.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Because saying that’s not the case and explaining why and how it’s not the case are two very different things.