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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (58 children)

Objective reality exists but the subjective is what matters when it comes to identity.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (57 children)

Why?

So the deception that Alicia Estes committed by pretending to a be a heroic survivor of the 9-11 attack on the World Trade Center matters less than her "identity" as Tania Head? https://youtu.be/UfYQfeLuSrQ

Donald Trump's self-identity as the greatest POTUS ever, the best dealmaker in history, and the winner of the most recent US presidential election matters more than his record, other people's views of him, and the verified vote counts?

Elizabeth Holmes' identity as a good person and a tech genius on par with Steve Jobs counts more than her actions at Theranos and all the lies and hoodwinking she tried to get away with?

Christian Karl Gerhartsreiter's long-claimed identity as Clark Rockefeller matters more than the murder and other crimes he committed? https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2009/01/fake_rockefeller200901

Again, why?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (56 children)

I don’t consider any of those identities. They are beliefs, but that’s different than an identity.

An identity is inherently subjective. I have a male body. That’s a fact. I also consider myself a woman but that isn’t dependent on external physical reality. It’s subjective. Now in that case there could be an objective basis in brain structures etc but ultimately how one identifies is inherently subjective. I can’t tell you how you should identify any more than you can tell me how I should. We just do.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (55 children)

I'm not telling you how you should conceptualize yourself. I don't care. I don't care how you dress or "present" yourself either. You do you.

My concern is that QT says your subjective psychological sense of yourself as a woman should have as much, or even more, validity in life, law, sport, medical care, public provisions, social customs, communal accommodations and services as the objective physical reality of me actually being a woman owing to the verified and verifiable fact that I am a human who is female and of adult age.

My concern is that QT says the general public - and girls & women in particular - need to give up rights and bend over backwards to accommodate, validate and "affirm" the subjective psychological sense of self that you and some other people have in your heads.

In exchanges with me and other female posters on other threads, you've not shown us much respect. You've also taken it as your right to define what being a woman is and means, and what specifically female body parts are for.

My own subjective self-image is not an issue here coz I am not trying to impose my internal feelings, thoughts and imaginings about myself onto the world and other people in it. I'm not demanding that other people take seriously what I believe about myself and show my ideas about myself respect. I'm not trying to use my inner ideas about myself to take away any other people's rights or remove safeguarding provisions put in place to benefit children, women and disadvantaged persons the way QT and trans activists are.

Also, I don't have an "identity" the way you do. I'm of a generation that doesn't do the "identify as" thing, and for whom the very idea of "identifying as" what we are not seems utterly alien. I just have a boring old internal self-concept. Or rather two self-concepts, one which represents who I think I am - my "as is" self- and the other that represents who I wish I were - my ideal self. But I can't imagine trying to impose my views of who I wish I were on other people, much less demanding that they take my idealized, indeed imaginary, self as true and show "respect" for it - especially when it contradicts what they can see for themselves with their own eyes.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (54 children)

My own subjective self-image is not an issue here coz I am not trying to impose my internal feelings, thoughts and imaginings about myself onto the world and other people in it. I'm not demanding that other people take seriously what I believe about myself and show my ideas about myself respect.

You are demanding your conception of identity define how everyone is treated, not just you. You want your ideas to control how we are treated.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You're the one who is dictacting how we must see you and how we must treat you even though biology goes against your self-image. Do you apply the same logic for other situations? Can someone practices medicine just by "identifying" as a doctor, even though they never studied for it? Can someone just "identify" as innocent in a trial so all the evidence against them is ignored? Can someone "identify" as Olympic champion runner even though they has never won any race? Can someone identify as a governor even though they lost the elections?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

If someone wants to treat themselves who cares? They can’t identify as a champion runner but can certainly choose to run and shouldn’t be prevented from doing so. They can’t be a governor on their own but they can choose to pursue politics.

Let people do what they want with themselves and respect it. What’s the problem?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

No, that's not true, and you know it. I'm a pluralist and democrat. I want laws, public policy and social customs to be decided by all the various kinds of people who make up society working together and based on democratic principles and objective material and social reality that's measurable, verifiable and widely agreed upon. I want all sides to have ample opportunity to discuss, present evidence and engage in vigorous debate where everyone gets a chance to have their views heard.

Whereas you want laws, public policy and social customs to be decreed in dictatorial fashion by you and others who constitute a tiny, self-selected, self-serving special interest group and whose members all believe that a) the subjective feelings that individuals like you have about yourselves matter more than objective reality that the rest of society agrees on; and b) the desire/need of a tiny authoritarian minority to get your own way and to bend the world to your will should take precedence over other people with different views being able to have, hold on to and exercise their/our rights and freedoms.

I don't want to control you. I don't want you to be mistreated, either. I think you should be protected from discrimination and able to live your life as you wish without harassment, abuse or violence.

But at the same time, I also don't think the totally unverifiable claims you and others make about the "identities" you have in your heads are a good foundation on which to make law, public policy and to try to build a fair society. You're the one who wants a society based on coercive control, not I.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I want a society where oppressed groups have protections allowing them to actually participate in a society even if they are relatively small in number.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I do too. The difference is that I don't think participating in society means making other people participate in, play along with, "validate" and "affirm" your/their own subjective self-image.

Also, I have a hunch that I've actually done a whole lot more IRL to help insure that oppressed groups have protections that allow them to participate in society to the fullest extent possible whether they are relatively small in number - like lesbians & gays, persons with disabilities and rare "orphan" diseases, people who are homeless, persons who are mentally ill - or they are large in number yet still oppressed - like girls & women, the majority black population of South Africa and Namibia who were subjected to apartheid, or the many millions of people around the world who in my lifetime have become refugees due to warfare, tyranny, famine and natural disasters.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Except you obviously don’t Care about access or participation for trans people.

And believe what you want about me but I certainly suspect your hunch is false.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (47 children)

Aren’t you kind of demanding that your conception of identity (an “identity” that is based on the fact of half of the human population, the half that you weren’t born as…) dictate for actual female humans as well as pretty much everyone else what it means to be a woman?

Meaning aren’t you trying to make the rest of the world, including the very people you based your identity on, conform to your personal sense of identity?

You want your ideas to dictate female spaces and rights and the language everyone uses.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

I’m not telling you whether you are a woman. I’m not dictating anyone’s identity but my own.

You are the ones trying to tell me who i am.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

In order for you to identify as a woman, in order for you to call yourself a woman, and inevitably expect or prefer others to do the same- you have to change what it means to be a woman to include yourself in some way. That is my main point. That you literally have to alter the meaning and purpose of the word woman to claim it in any capacity.

The word woman has a clear meaning. Adult. Female. Human. You cannot prove that the meaning has changed, nor can you claim in any fact based way that you fit that definition- so you just took it upon yourself (well- all TW) to claim an identity that isn’t even an actual identity (it’s literally a physical/biological state of being) and demand policy and society affirm it.

I didn’t tell you who you are. Biology, fact, chromosomes, genetics etc did. Eta- they don’t even tell you WHO you are, they tell you WHAT you are. You put limitations on who that allowed you to be, not anyone else.

No you aren’t telling me whether or not I am a woman- you ARE telling everyone that you’ve decided that you are also a woman (and just as much a woman as an actual adult female human) when you truly have no basis for that claim other than an internal sense of self. So even if woman were an identity- it would be a female identity and as such not really yours to claim or claim to understand enough to identify with.

“Woman” is not a sense of self. It’s not an identity. You want us to accept that it is for your sake.

So… It is actually YOU who is forcing your sense of identity onto everyone else. The rest of us understand that sex/gender are not identities.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

I’m not having the definition discussion again. We’ve been there.

You are the one saying that it is some accident of biology that should control the sum total of all my interactions including what I’m called and how I’m treated, rather than who I am.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

I didn’t start a definition conversation lmao you’re just deflecting and avoiding my point. I said nothing about how being male dictates your interactions what you’re called or how you’re treated. I literally said only you did that to yourself.

I literally only fucking said that you identifying as a woman is no different from Trump identifying as the last election’s winner because in order for you to call yourself a woman or claim to identify as one tou have to completely ignore what the word means and what you knew a fucking woman to even be when you claimed us for an identity.

Im sure you’ll continue to ignore my point and even pretend I said some shit I didn’t say, but all that matters to me is that I get my point across clearly so it’s apparent that you’re avoiding dealing with it, so deflect away boo

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

You might not be telling us whether we are women in so many words, but you are changing the definition and meaning of the category "women" so that it includes some males. You are also appropriating the word "woman" for yourself, ignoring the fact that it's a word that's already taken and not up for grabs. In the process, you are telling women that there is nothing about female humans that makes us distinct from and different to male humans. In other words, by claiming our name for yourself, you are erasing us and denying that we alone have a legitimate claim to the word "woman" and the category women.

You are the ones trying to tell me who i am.

Women didn't invent biological sex, or make it binary and immutable. Your beef is with biology, nature and evolution. It's not the fault of women, of GC, or of anyone else who doesn't believe in QT and the primacy of gender that you are not and can't become what you desire to be.

BTW, lots of people are deeply unhappy with the bodies they/we were born with and are stuck with. Many people feel enormous distress looking in a mirror, bathing, getting dressed, going out in public, getting through the day because of deep-seated bodily issues.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

In the process, you are telling women that there is nothing about female humans that makes us distinct from and different to male humans.

I’m expressly not. I’ve never claimed to be female. Just a woman.

Women didn't invent biological sex, or make it binary and immutable. Your beef is with biology, nature and evolution. It's not the fault of women, of GC, or of anyone else who doesn't believe in QT and the primacy of gender that you are not and can't become what you desire to be.

You may not have invented it but you are saying biology should control our whole lives.

BTW, lots of people are deeply unhappy with the bodies they/we were born with and are stuck with. Many people feel enormous distress looking in a mirror, bathing, getting dressed, going out in public, getting through the day because of deep-seated bodily issues.

And they are allowed to fix them without being persecuted.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I’m expressly not. I’ve never claimed to be female. Just a woman.

Oy vey, there you go again. When you claim to be a woman, you are divorcing "woman" from being female, one of the core defining characteristics.

To be a woman, a person has to meet three essential criteria - be an adult, be human and be female. A person can't be a woman without meeting ALL three of these criteria, without having ALL three of the essential core characteristics. By claiming you are a woman, you are saying a woman can be a male adult human just as much as a female one. Which is fundamentally changing the definition of woman and erasing and eliding all the ways in which women are a distinct, separate sex to adult human males.

This is telling women that we are not distinct or different from males. Worse, it's telling us that we are simply an idea in men's minds, figments of male imagination.

You may not have invented it but you are saying biology should control our whole lives.

Can you show me where I or any other "GC" feminist has said any such thing? I believe biology determines sex - just as biology determines other basics like our need for water, food and air - and just as biology means we all are mortal and that whilst we alive, we are vulnerable to disease and injury.

But except in specific situations where biological sex is a factor - such as in health care, sports, safeguarding and facilities and provisions meant to accommodate male or female anatomy and physiology - I don't believe that people's options in life should be limited or controlled by their/our sex. I'm all for men doing child care, being SAHDs and working as nurses and women not having children, and working as police officers and air traffic controllers. If men truly could get pregnant, carry a baby to term, undergo labor and childbirth, and breast feed, I'd happily have shared the burden with the man I procreated with.

At the same time, however, I believe that sex is an important physical reality that matters a great deal to most people, that it's immutable, that it can't be waved away by choosing to "identify as" the opposite-sex, and that it has consequences that affect our lives in myriad ways large and small from soon after conception to our dying days. Whereas you prefer to take the position that the physical reality of your sexed body is far less important than your desire to have a body of the opposite sex, and that what matters most is the identity claims you make about yourself based on what you wish were true rather what is objectively, verifiably and measurably true.

Moreover, you appear to believe that cosmetic changes made to the human body can turn a male person into the opposite sex - or at least into a outwardly-appearing facsimile of the opposite sex that in your opinion is close enough to the real thing in the ways that count to you as to be pretty much the same, but again "the same" only in the superficial ways that matter in the eyes of some males.

And they are allowed to fix them without being persecuted.

People who identify as trans today are able to get all sorts of extensive cosmetic body modifications paid for by government-funded national and state health services and/or by private medical insurance. All they need is a diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" - which in countries like the USA and many European nations is one of the easiest Dx's to get nowadays, and is also easy to get in places like the UK and Canada by going to private HCPs rather than through the state health care system. Moreover, when trans people make these body modifications, even the most superficial ones, they are widely and effusively praised and celebrated for it. This has been the case for quite a while now.

When Bruce Jenner became Caitlyn in 2015, Jenner immediately got featured on the covers of glossy magazines, given a TV show, and was showered with awards, including "woman of the year" and the Arthur Ashe "courage" award. How is this persecution?

When a career criminal with multiple convictions and incarcerations for fraud and theft (including of social security and welfare checks from the elderly and poor) who never worked an "honest" job named Kricket "Thunderpussy" Nimmons became the first person to undergo "MtF" surgery on the genitals to affirm Nimmons' identity as a woman that was fully paid for by NY State Medicaid in 2015, Nimmons' story was covered in a lengthy, fawning story and video, complete with professional photo styling, by the NY Times that was featured on the front page of the "paper of record." Nimmons also got a NYC subsidized apartment, government financial support and special health services because Nimmons is black, identifies as trans and has HIV. Nimmons got paid to be a professional "trans advocate" by a taxpayer-funded organization too. Moreover, Nimmons got free legal representation from not just the ACLU, but from a "white shoe" Park Avenue law firm. How is this persecution?

The NYT reported that because Nimmons was habitually non-compliant with the medical regimen meant to keep Nimmons' HIV in check and also did not comply with the post-op instructions after the "sex reassignment" surgery Nimmons got for free courtesy of taxpayers, Nimmons has required extensive hospital stays that could have been prevented - and also had to have the "SRS" redone. All at taxpayer's expense. How is this persecution?

Even back in the 1970s males who identified as trans weren't necessarily "persecuted" for it. When acclaimed historian, journalist, adventurer and father of 5 James Morris became Jan and wrote the best-selling 1974 memoir Conundrum, Morris was praised and accepted. Before Morris died in 2020 at age 94, Morris said never once in nearly 50 years living as someone publicly known to be trans had Morris suffered any discrimination or mistreatment for the identity Morris adopted and the surgeries and other body mods that Morris underwent.

Similarly, in the 1970s when ace male athlete, respected physician and father Richard Raskin, who grew up with every kind of white male privilege imaginable, became Renee Richards, persecution did not follow. Not even when one of the things Richards did immediately after "becoming a woman" was to sue - and win - the right to play professional women's tennis at a time when women were just starting to get a chance to have our own sports leagues. How exactly does this amount to "being persecuted"?

By contrast, people with disabling physical health conditions and mental health conditions that aren't "gender dysphoria" have to go through enormous hoops and intensive scrutiny in order to qualify for government financial support programs, medical interventions and equipment - and depending on the jurisdiction, people with disabilities often or customarily have to do this at regular intervals throughout their lives in order to keep qualifying for the programs they rely on.

Similarly, people with truly diseases that are severely life-limiting and life-threatening have to go through extensive diagnostic testing and provide tons of proof in the form of paperwork, scan films, lab results, etc and go through physical exams, personal interviews and sometimes even home visits in order to get their treatments and accommodations covered by public health systems like the NHS or private health insurers. But even then, most people have access to only some of the treatments available, rather than the treatment they prefer on demand. Moreover, before getting cleared for invasive and costly treatments like surgeries, many people have to try all other less expensive and non-invasive treatments first.

I don't believe anyone should be "persecuted" for having a physical or mental illness, or because they decide to claim they are something they are not. But the self-pitying way you constantly claim that trans people are uniquely put upon and that you suffer pain and persecution far worse than anyone else in the world is tiresome - and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.