QT: Is there such a thing as a man wants to be a woman? + 10 additional questions

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

The 300 page surgery but report you posted has self reported suicide attempts at 40 percent.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You already said that. As I have said multiple times now, a self-reported attempted suicide rate ≠ a suicide rate. The suicide rate is under 1%, making it "vanishingly rare". Seeing as detransition is more common, instead of using the suicide rate to justify transition, the detrans rate should be used to justify discouraging transition.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Detransition isn’t more common and it’s literally impossible to estimate the rate of trans peoples suicide without transition access, since there’s no way to know how many are trans.

Reported attempts is the best available statistic

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

How is it "impossible" to estimate the rate of suicide? You could literally use the self-reported attempted suicide to estimate it. Just compare it with the average student's self-reported attempted suicide rate: 14% vs. completed suicide by the average student "There are about 100 non-fatal suicide attempts to every 1 suicide". So if 1% of attempts result in suicide that still puts the suicide rate under 1%.

Meanwhile there is an 8% detransition rate. Therefore detransition is more common than these diminishingly rare suicides, making sex-reassignment unwarranted, while justifying its discouragement. Not to mention the only way to desist from gender dysphoria (thereby supposedly lowering the likelihood of suicidality) is to desist from cross-sex self-reassignment.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Except that assumes that the same rate of success for student attempts as trans attempts which isn’t necessarily the case. As well as it being impossible to get good statistics on successful suicide attempts by untreated trans people. You are making logical leaps that are unsound particularly when discussing statitistics.

I severely doubt 8 percent as a statistic and even if that were true a portion of that detransition is due to societal pressures and abuse, not because they aren’t actually trans. It’s essentially torturing people into pretending to not be trans not unlike conversion therapy.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

lol what logical leaps? 100 suicide attempts leads to 1 death, according to the source I provided. Where is the leap? Based on that info we can estimate that the suicide rate is below 1% – an estimate you said was "impossible". There is no reason to think that suicidal people who self-reassign themselves as the opposite sex are better or worse at completing suicide than the average suicidal person is. I mean, men are better at completing suicide than women are, so if these transJenner men really are women deep down then their attempts would be less successful than if they were actually men all along. This would only further reduce the suicide rate though.

If you were going to doubt the 8% stat anyway, regardless of what any source had to say, why did you even bother asking for a source?

If you can be socially pressured out of being transgender, then that's only further evidence that it's not an identity, isn't it?

That's some pretty Orwellian "conversion therapy" – the kind that has you accepting yourself for what you are, instead of attempting sex-reassignment as the opposite sex, for the "reason" that bodies & identities should "match", bc sometimes bodies & identities don't match apparently, & these need to always be made to match, bc a mismatched body to an identity leads to "torture" & "death" if left untreated, even though 90% of the time, untreated it just leads to desistance. So if identity can change so easily & does so so frequently, why the fck should changing the body to match the identity be the goal, instead of the other way around? Uh-oh, now we're back at unanswered question 9b again.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

100 suicide attempts leads to 1 death, according to the source I provided.

In a different demographic which can’t be soundly extrapolated. That’s the leap.

If you were going to doubt the 8% stat anyway, regardless of what any source had to say, why did you even bother asking for a source?

You sent an untargeted link to a 300 page non searchable pdf. I’m not reading a 300 page report to find where you ignored something about that statistic

If you can be socially pressured out of being transgender, then that's only further evidence that it's not an identity, isn't it

You can’t be made not transgender but you can be made to pretend, just like you can be pressured into pretending you aren’t gay. It doesn’t make you not gay or not trans.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In a different demographic which can’t be soundly extrapolated. That’s the leap.

No, it's the same demographic. It's a like with like comparison. Because the self-reported attempted suicide demographic were students I sought out the student suicide attempt-to-completion ratio.

You sent an untargeted link to a 300 page non searchable pdf. I’m not reading a 300 page report to find where you ignored something about that statistic

I gave you the page number, so not 300 pages, just 1.

You can’t be made not transgender but you can be made to pretend, just like you can be pressured into pretending you aren’t gay. It doesn’t make you not gay or not trans.

90% desistance rate says otherwise. Pretending is what they were doing before they desisted. Pretending is what the ones who failed to desist are doing. Secondly, gay isn't an identity, it's an orientation.