QT: Is there such a thing as a man wants to be a woman? + 10 additional questions

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

I'm using the terminology outlined in the DSM-V. You can divide people who want to be the opposite sex into two groups: early-onset dysphorics & late-onset dysphorics. As I said in my original reply: early-onset dysphorics are typically male homosexuals, according to the DSM-V.

Suicide attempts ≠ suicide rates. Girls 12-17 ≠ men & boys who want to be the opposite sex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

But the DSM-V is way outdated. It took a full decade to write and was published and came into effect in May 2013 - before the big surge in female pre-pubescent children and female adolescents presenting with GD.

The surge in female minors seeking treatment at gender clinics began to rise gradually from 2009-2013. But in 2014-15, the rise suddenly became steep.

For example at the NHS youth GIDS clinic run by the Tavistock, the number of adolescent girls referred went from 15 in 2009 to 314 in 2014. But in 2015 the number jumped to 689, to 1,071 in 2016 and to 1,400 in 2017 and 1,500 in 2018. The number of girls referred in 2019 and 2020 has held steady at about 1,500. That's a huge jump in a very short space of time. None of which is accounted for in the DSM-V.

The number of "gender confirmation" surgeries performed on females in the US went up by 300% between 2016 and 2017 and has continued to climb ever since. Now the number of "gender confirmation" surgeries done on females each year far outstrips the number done on males. The single most common of these surgeries is double mastectomy.

https://www.genderhq.org/increase-trans-females-nonbinary-dysphoria

As I said in my original reply: early-onset dysphorics are typically male homosexuals, according to the DSM-V.

Yes, when the DSM-V was written and published, nearly all patients being diagnosed with childhood and "GD" were male, and more than 2/3s of those diagnosed with adolescent GD were male. But the facts have changed enormously since 2013. Now 50% of those being diagnosed with childhood GD are female, and more than 2/3s of those being diagnosed with adolescent GD are females.

Since males and females begin puberty & thus enter adolescence at different ages, and puberty unfolds in the two sexes entirely differently and at different paces, it's no longer helpful to use the terms "early-onset" and "late-onset" that were developed specifically and solely to apply to boys for the entire population of children and adolescents. A boy who is seen at a clinic and gets diagnosed at 8 or 9 will most likely have childhood-onset GD. But a girl of 8 or 9 will most likely have adolescent-onset GD, or at least needs to be evaluated for it.

Suicide attempts ≠ suicide rates. Girls 12-17 ≠ men & boys who want to be the opposite sex.

I never said that suicide attempts and rates were the same. CMOV and I were disagreeing over whether self-reports of suicide attempts made in anonymous online surveys can be counted and taken seriously as suicide attempts that actually occurred, or might have occurred. You're the one who brought completed suicides into the convo, and tried to shift the focus back to a discussion solely of males with GD.

But thanks for making it so clear that your only concern here is with "men & boys who want to be the opposite sex," and what's happening to girls is not worth your attention.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The DSM-V is a living document, updated annually, it's the authority where consensus on the transgender topic is concerned.

Girls transitioning is a phenomenon called ROGD & is just a trend that will disappear as suddenly in about 10 years from now as it appeared about 10 years ago. ROGD shouldn't be confused with early-onset dysphoria. Treating two different things as if they are the same is not equality or redressing the balance.

I'm not the one who shifted discussion. You are actually the one who butted in (twice). I'm the one who introduced the topic of suicide rates (after CMOW said detransition was vanishingly rare, I pointed out that so is suicide), which CMOW predictably shifted to self-reported attempted suicides in a patronising attempt to bolster the suicide rate (by diluting it). That was the first time you, disappointingly, butted in in order to take the bait of talking about self-reported attempted suicides, instead of just sticking with suicides. Once I pointed out the distinction between suicide & non-suicide to CMOW, you butted in a second time "correcting" me on my use of "early-onset dysphorics", at which point you introduced girls who attempted suicide.

Just bc I wish to stay on topic doesn't mean the suicide rate of male dysphorics is all that matters in the world forever. We recognise that men & women are different. So why should a discussion about one include the other, when they have practically nothing in common?

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

If you're using the DMS-V as the only authoritative voice about gender dysphoria, I'm pretty sure ROGD is not included on it. Also, it's a bold claim to make ROGD will just dissapear in ten years. What are you even basing this prediction on?

Moreover, the suicide mith is used to justify social and medical "transition" of trans identified children and teens regardless of their sex or when their gender dysphoria began. So, although it's important to make the distinction between the different populations, it seems relevant to include teenager girls in the discussion, especially considering they make up the biggest group right now.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I never said that the DSM-V is the only authoritative voice, only that it reflects a consensus & is up-to-date. Normally I only get flack from the sex-reassignment cult for quoting the DSM-V because it validates autogynaephila more than a few times.

Abigail Shier is pretty much an expert on ROGD & she has said that she believes it'll disappear in about 10 years & I agree with her. The ROGD social contagion has more in common with the emo-craze than it does with the homosexual throwbacks that transsexuals are.

I agree that teenage girls are relevant to the discussion (they are the majority of suicide attempts, medical mutilations, & detransitioners), but I felt like the way they were being included was in a way that veered too far from the topic e.g. demonstration on how high the attempted suicide rate is among girls who aren't self-assigned gender-swap role-players, in the middle of me trying to point out that suicide is rare among male dysphorics & shouldn't be confused with failed suicide attempts.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It doesn't stop being a bold claim just because Abigail Shrier said so. Abigail has made a great job on bringing awareness about ROGD, but still she is a journalist, not the one treating these girls. She is also too invested in the idea of "true trans", and I think that is coloring her views. It was very disappointing to read in her most recent article that she seemingly doesn't see how Jazz Jennings and other people like him were basically "transed" by their parents.

She is counting on the social contagion, but even if the number go down it doesn't necessaryly mean the cases of teenager girld suddenly identifying as "boys" will just dissapear. And the comparison with the the emo-craze ends when you take into account there are too many people who are invested in making the "trans" kids and teens a thing. I'm not that optimist to think the factors that have lead to the increase in teen girls disavowing their sex will just dissapear in that short time.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Any time you see gender-neutral language, like 'kids' & 'teens', then you know everyone is imagining boys anyway. "Trans kids & teens" doesn't necessitate the inclusion of girls. Also, so many of them identify as "non-binary", which no one takes seriously, which is probably half the reason they opt for identifying as binary boys.

The fact that ROGD appeared suddenly, recently, when it never used to exist, I think is a pretty good indicator that it will go away on its own. There are underlying problems that cause girls to self-harm in so many different ways. Until the underlying problem is found & solved they'll continue to find new & creative ways to harm themselves. The main problem is institutions sanctioning & assisting in their self-harm. However, veganism is also an identity-craze right now which the whole world accommodates for too, & that's definitely going to become an extinct fad, eventually.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender dysphoria didn't exist before the 20th century, but it's still a thing today even if wen't through a few name changes. Anorexia nervosa is also a social contagion, but it still exists. Actually, girls with anorexia seem to be overrepresented among the girls identifyng as "boys".

I wouldn't dismiss the girls who say they are "nonbinary" because seemingly for many this "identity" is a stepping stone to say they are the opposite sex.

And transactivists absolutely need girls if they want people to overlook the obvious fetishism present in the movement. Teen girls are more useful for that than teen boys. And because girls (and women, too) who claim to be te opposite sex are seen as less menacing, TRA have used them to advance the erasure of single-sex spaces. Furthermore, if there weren't girls and women who say they are anything else than female, how could TRA justify all those "inclusive" terms like "menstruators", "uterus-owners" or "bodies with vagina"?