QT: Is there such a thing as a man wants to be a woman? + 10 additional questions

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (32 children)

  1. No. That’s not how it’s defined. That’s one of several criteria that could meet the test.

  2. They’re people of different genders.

  3. No I didn’t. I said that was largely the difference between men and women. Sex and gender aren’t dependent. But dysphoria comes when sex and gender don’t match.

  4. Offhand the trans man who was charged with rape by deception for using a strap on on the girl he was dating. There’s at least one. Your premise then is false.

  5. You aren’t passing as a cross dresser because cross dressers and trans women aren’t the same thing. They are passing as a natal woman or passing as a trans women. Both types of women.

  6. No is the answer to the question you asked in 6. It’s a complete answer.

  7. It’s fully coherent. You are being obtuse. I said afab trans people and natal women. If you must add adult to afab trans to fill out then so be it. If you say women I don’t know what you mean. Does that include trans men? Trans women? Non-binary people? Women is an incomplete term for what you ask.

  8. Because that’s not what’s happening and not what coopting is.

9a. Comparing transition to literally torturing children into pretending they aren’t attracted to who they are attracted to is inaccurate and wildly insensitive.

9b desistance isn’t dysphoria stopping. It’s cessation of cross gender behavior. That’s what a trans person desisting is. It’s detransition not just no more dysphoria because otherwise transition counts as desistance and you don’t want that. Death is better than living as a man. You don’t agree? Well congrats you aren’t trans.

  1. Well you are wrong. Talk to any trans man ever. They don’t want to be considered women. Oh you mean trans women? Well there’s your problem you are using the wrong definitions of words. Men are disgusting monsters. The idea of being thought of as one of them is viscerally nauseating. I would be less insulted to be dehumanized to “it” than called “he”. Being considered a woman is nice. I feel it’s accurate personally and it is the way I generally seek to interact with people. But it’s not essential. However not being a man is essential. What they are coached to be, how they are meant to act, disgusting. Now the bodily dysphoria was mountains worse than the social for me, but still yet I can’t stomach being thought of as a man or treated like one.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (31 children)

Comparing transition to literally torturing children into pretending they aren’t attracted to who they are attracted to is inaccurate and wildly insensitive.

It seems like the issue is that it doesn't appear torturous because those kids might be very happy to transition, so it looks positive that way the way that LGB affirmation looks, but LGB kids don't undergo the procedures and permanent alterations to their bodies and lives the way that children who undergo transition do, just to be themselves. Given the rate at which kids desist, and looking at how many people detransition, it does seem a bit cruel to assume that these kids won't desist and push them through transitioning.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (30 children)

Detransition Is vanishingly rare and noting irreversible is dibd before adolescence and I have never seen gc cite any statistics on adolescent desistance

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (29 children)

Suicide is vanishingly rare, so how can it be used to warrant encouraging transition, but detransition can't be used to warrant encouraging desistance?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

Suicide attempts absolutely aren’t vanishingly rare.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

They are nowhere near the detransition rates, which are between 2-8%. Suicide rates are well-under 1%.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (26 children)

Suicide attempt rates for trans people who can’t access care have been measured at over 40 percent.

And so you have a source in 8 percent detransition? Because I’ve never seen anything over one percent.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Suicide attempt rates for trans people who can’t access care have been measured at over 40 percent.

Evidence please. And by evidence I mean reports from impartial health authorities and researchers based on substantiated medical records, police reports, ER visits, etc. Not self-reports made by supposedly trans people responding to anonymous online surveys done by campaign groups that put out propaganda like the Williams Institute, HRC, Trevor Project, Mermaids.

And not the anonymous National Transgender Discrimination Survey (NTDS) from 2014 that the much-contested 41% figure originally came from.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Self report surveys are accepted science. You are being unreasonable to dismiss them.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nah, mate, self reports in anonymous online surveys pitched to certain groups for the purposes of eliciting certain answers to get particular results are not reliable "accepted science." Especially when they consist of yes/no questions, and no definitions are given that make clear distinctions between such different things as thoughts of suicide, suicidal ideation, suicidal urges, suicide plans, genuine suicide attempts, feigned suicide attempts and carried-out genuine suicide attempts.

Many people who claim in anonymous surveys that they have made suicide attempts have actually had thoughts of suicide. Or their supposed suicide attempts consisted of indulging in acts of self-harm they knew had no chance of killing them, such as taking a few extra Tylenol or ibuprofen, cutting themselves nowhere near a vein or artery.

Globally, the availability and quality of data on suicide and suicide attempts is poor.

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/suicide

In some populations, actual suicides and genuine suicide attempts are under-reported. Amongst other populations, past suicide attempts are likely to be way over-reported. People answering anonymous on-line surveys lie all the time. Just as people lie in face-to-face interviewers and to telephone pollsters.

Moreover, information on actual suicides shows that there's an inverse relationship between talking about/threatening suicide and actually attempting and doing it. People who are the most serious about attempting suicide tend to keep it to themselves rather than sharing their intent with others.

Histrionic people who indulge in catastrophic thinking, are given to exaggeration, who are in denial about basic facts about their own sex and the reality of sex, who believe they are the most oppressed people on the planet, and think everyone is out to get them, are not reliable sources of information about their own life events/histories.

The most reliable source of information about suicide attempts is hospital ER records. In this regard, the most worrying trend is amongst adolescent girls - the same group being most affected by gender ideology today:

In May 2020, during the COVID-19 pandemic, ED visits for suspected suicide attempts began to increase among adolescents aged 12–17 years, especially girls. During February 21–March 20, 2021, suspected suicide attempt ED visits were 50.6% higher among girls aged 12–17 years than during the same period in 2019; among boys aged 12–17 years, suspected suicide attempt ED visits increased 3.7%.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7024e1.htm

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Self-reported, attempted suicide rates (which is 29% among male dysphorics) are not suicide rates. 100% of the sample in the study you are quoting was alive. Those rates go down with age, & are literally exactly the same percentage for LGB people, which makes sense since early-onset dysphorics are almost exclusively male homosexuals.

The suicide rate among male cross-sex role-players is 0.8% https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/?fbclid=IwAR0KyMfRJG50rPKZOId8nhH27eXQJiBr-vX7_LkZ5-k2HtmQF1A9wnUFooA

8% detransition https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

What do you mean by "early-onset dysphorics"? If you mean "males/persons with early childhood-onset GD," please say that. It's already confusing enough when posters like circling keep using various terms loosely and as though they were interchangeable when they're not.

Thanks.

Also, whilst that Dutch study you cited (your first link) is interesting, I think it's too broad. It looked at medical records/patients' charts of all persons male & female who presented for "gender therapy" at any age of their lives and for any reason from 1972 through 2017. A 25-year-old male who sought care in a gender clinic in 1972 would have been been born in 1947 and thus can't be assumed to have much in common with a 25 y-old male who attending the same clinic in 2017, who would've been born in 1992 Similarly, neither would have much in common with a 15 year-old female attending the clinic in those same years.

The internet has made a huge difference in how widespread GD is; who is affected by it; how treatable or intractable it is; how transitory or persistent it is; and how common AGP is in males and issues like internalized misogyny and autoandrophilia are in females, etc. Young people growing up in the era of social media, internet porn, virutal reality, gaming culture are spending more time alone "living online" in a disembodied fantasy world than physically interacting with other people face-to-face in the flesh in the "real world." In the process, they seem to be developing more mental distress/illness, lower self-esteem, less stable senses of self, and more sexual dysfunction and so on.

The Dutch paper in your first link says:

Out of 5107 trans women (median age at first visit 28 years, median follow‐up time 10 years) and 3156 trans men (median age at first visit 20 years, median follow‐up time 5 years), 41 trans women and 8 trans men died by suicide. In trans women, suicide deaths decreased over time, while it did not change in trans men. Of all suicide deaths, 14 people were no longer in treatment, 35 were in treatment in the previous two years. The mean number of suicides in the years 2013–2017 was higher in the trans population compared with the Dutch population.

I think the last line is extremely pertinent. As is this from the USA's CDC more recently about the group who currently is being most affected by gender ideology and getting caught up in the GD and trans craze, namely adolescent females:

In May 2020, during the COVID-19 pandemic, ED visits for suspected suicide attempts began to increase among adolescents aged 12–17 years, especially girls. During February 21–March 20, 2021, suspected suicide attempt ED visits were 50.6% higher among girls aged 12–17 years than during the same period in 2019; among boys aged 12–17 years, suspected suicide attempt ED visits increased 3.7%.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7024e1.htm

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

When I said early-onset dysphorics that's what I meant.

If we are discussing suicide rates then I'm not interested in suicide ideation rates masquerading as suicide rates. Every study has it's flaws, however the one I supplied has the least flaws since it's actually on completed suicides of men who identified as the opposite sex, unlike your latest link/excerpt which is about suicide ideation again, & it's not even on the demographic we're discussing.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

The 300 page study YOU cited lists suicide attempts at 40 percent among respondents not 29. I don’t have time to Comb it for the detransition statistics so I can’t comment on that.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I very clearly stated that 29% of the male ones (which are the ones under discussion) self-report attempting suicide: https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/142/4/e20174218?sso=1&sso_redirect_count=1&nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3a+No+local+token The actual suicide rate however is under 1% as the other link I provided shows.

Combing isn't necessary, you just do a search of the document for 'de-trans', or 'eight percent', it's in chapter 7 p. 111.