GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces?

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[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Gender has no place in biology. The correct term has always been sex, which you could corroborate by seeing some related terms: sexual reproduction, sexual dimorphism, sex determination, sex chromosomes, sex hormones, sex-linked inheritance. None of them use the word gender.

Originally, gender belonged to grammar. For example, Spanish is a gendered language where nouns, adjectives and articles are either masculine or feminine. When not linked to sex, the gender of a word is quite arbitrary and it doesn’t tell you anything about social norms, either. For instance, all the sciences are feminine nouns in Spanish, but that doesn’t mean science is regarded as a feminine pursuit in Spanish-speaking countries.

It was later that English speakers decided to use the word gender to refer to the different stereotypes and social roles that are expected from women and men. And at some point, for some reason, some English speakers decided to replace the word sex for gender. This latter use was the one that extended it the most and, yes, it was adopted even by some scientists and health care professionals. It must be said, though, this aversion for the word sex don’t exist outside the English-speaking world (not until very recently at least). However, because of the cultural and political influence of English speaking countries, particularly the United States, all those new meanings of gender (included the meaning of "gender identity") have been exported to many non-English speaking countries. This process was facilitated by the fact there is no lack of people who are pretty eager to adopt the latest American fashion without any care if it makes any sense. So, even though in Spanish the word sex has not been removed from daily speech in the same way it was in English, the use of gender for non-grammatical purposes have been slowly creeping into our language and I hate it.

Anyway, you have said nothing about how defining women and men in non-biological terms is what now allows males to be “legally female” in many places. You said nothing either about how it makes sense to both reject sexism and define men and women by social trends.

Moreover, it’s not only evolutionary biologists who care about our sexed bodies. When you go to the hospital, your doctors won’t care about how you was socialized, but also what is your sex. For example, urinary tract infections are more common in women, because our urethras are shorter and closer to the anus. It was no male socialization what allowed Laurel Hubbard to debut at the Olympics at 43 years of age, either. It is not because of female socialization that sex selective abortions happen and now men outnumber women by a large margin in some countries. But you focus so much in socialization that you end up thinking that biology does not matter at all.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think it unwise to allow the self-ID cult to co-opt any terms, including gender. Gender has two meanings: the male & female sexes, or the masculine & feminine constructs. When the self-ID cult refers to gender however, they are not referring to either of these definition, but a third undefined definition (bc definitions are "exclusionary" = make their ideology vulnerable to attack). Everyone uses the word 'gender' to refer to biological sex, the majority of the time, within colloquial language, as well as academia, even the self-ID cult often does this:

gender inequality (inequality between the sexes)

gender ratios (male sex:female sex ratio)

gender reveal party (revealing the biological sex of a baby)

"gender & covid-19" (the different ways in which the virus & vaccine effect male vs. female biology)

gendered (sexist)

gender dysphoria (depression based on the mismatch between a person's sex & their preferred sex, treated with cross-sex hormones)

It's a mammoth task for the self-ID cult to change the definition of gender to nothing, why help it along? If they monopolise the language they monopolise the discourse, which always wins over debates.

Regarding foreign languages: some languages like German don't make the distinction between gender (sex) & linguistic gender. If someone's sex is female then it's "weiblich", likewise if a word is feminine it's called "weiblich". We should try to get them to adopt the word "feminin".

It's sex AND socialisation, not sex OR socialisation, it's not an either/or thing. In fact the latter is dependant on the former. It's not exactly a respective cause & effect either though, more of a catalyst & effect. Both nature & nurture impact identity to the exclusion of all else. The same way that the Bruce Jenner's of the world are not female, biologically, is the same way that they are not female socially either. So I'm not undermining biological sex at all, you're the one trying to undermine socialisation.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The correct term for sex is... well, sex... Gender is only used as an euphemism because... honestly, I'd really like to know why some many English speakers do it. Is it prudishness? Are they only following the flow? Yes, it's true this euphemism is used even in academia. And, yet, no one says (yet) genderual reproduction or gender chromosomes because people (still) realize how dumb that would sound.

By the way, beware that TRA, when talking about this gender ratios, they are likely classifying people by "gender identity", not sex.

I don't know German, so I won't speak about it. But I can I tell you that expanding the meaning of the word for gender in Spanish has been a mess. For instance, in 2012 the gender identity law was passed in Argentina. This law legalized self-ID here and declares that everyone has a right to a "gender identity", which must be respected. Despite all the talk about "gender identity", the word actually used in our documents is sex because as I said the word sex is still widely used in Spanish speaking countries. The term gender is also used to talk about women's issues and you now have words like violencia de género (gender based violence), which I think it gives credit to the QT theory that women are discriminated against because of femininity and not our sex. And now in the news (and I guess in the justice system too) murders of males who identified as trans are counted as "femicides"...

I'm not trying to undermine socialization, that is ridiculous. I'm well aware that women and men are treated differently since, or before, they are born. I think differences between male and female behaviour is a result from both nature and nurture. I said you're disregarding biology because it seems you think biology only matters in deciding how one will be socialized.

By the way, are you going to tell me how including sex roles and stereotypes within the definition of women and men is any different thatn what TRA does? How can one reject sexism and define women by stereotypes at the same time?

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I mean, how is Spanish relevant here? If it has always been called sex, then gender doesn't even exist in Spanish. Wouldn't that make it easier to make a distinction between women & cross-sex cosplayers?

Sex & socialisation are always paired according to the norms of our culture, so just pointing out that they are separate doesn't mean the latter can be independent from the former & somehow attach itself to the opposite sex.

The distinction between sex & socialisation has always been important within feminism, bc the alternative, conservative view was that femininity was biologically determined, with the libertarian view attributing it to free will. I can see how the conservative views might support self-ID ideology, but the concept that primary socialisation impacts social identity most does anything but, quite the reverse in fact. Primary socialisation determining gender identity undermines the idea that cross-sex role-play determines it.

Definitions don't need to include all that information. The same way that despite sexism being a reality for women it's not going to become part of the definition of 'woman'. Simply acknowledging the impact of cultural conditioning on identity isn't the same as defining humans according to stereotypes.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Because, while transsexualism and transgenderism weren't invented only by Americans, transgender ideology (or identity politics in general) is very American centric and it has not only reached other English speaking countries, but also many other countries to different degrees. I explained the use gender in Spanish because that was what we were discussing, but many other English "inclusive" terms has been adopted or literally translated into Spanish by TRA from Spanish speaking countries. And they also parrot the same taking points than English speakers. I admit that part of my disgust from the word gender comes from the fact I see it as something that has been imposed from the outside.

Yes, I think talking about sex rather using gender as euphemism should make things clearer. And that is why I don't understand your insistence on using the word gender to mean sex. It's not like nobody would understand what you mean if you say sex, well, other than some harcore TRA I mean. And I neither understand why you think using (also) a non biological definition for woman and man is useful when that is exactly what has lead to the many laws allowing "legal sex changes". Again, my problem is not only with self-ID, but any law making a man legally a "woman" regardless of any meaningless requirement they ask for.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I completely sympathise with being the victim of American cultural imperialism. It's even worse in the English-speaking world bc American garbage can seep in unnoticed a lot easier.

I'm not going to hand the self-ID cult 'gender', bc it would be giving them legitimacy & integrity. The word gender is used 99% of the time to refer to sex, while the word sex is used 99% of the time to refer to sexual intercourse. By favouring the use of sex over gender I'm basically speaking a different dialect to everyone else. This is why the clown cult appropriates terms already in circulation, it gives their ideology more currency. Notice how they call women & girls "natal female" or "assigned female", while never including a qualifier when describing someone like Bruce Jenner as female. It's important to be steadfast & not capitulate on this. They haven't got a word or definition for what they are talking about, which is why they coops the word gender & hope to ride in on their trojan horse that way.

In Spanish it makes sense to abolish the word, it doesn't in English though, bc in doing so we'll merely be erasing the sexes (bc we'll have no way of referring to them apart from "assigned birth sex" or something equally ludicrous).

Socialisation is firmly anchored to sex, so rather than creating an opening for role-play to replace identity the concept of socialisation only further undermines it. Clearly they are more invested in proving that they can change sex via their supposed brainsex, or cross-sex hormones in addition to creating the notion that "sex is a spectrum". Does that mean focusing on biological sex to define girls & women should be abandoned for giving gender-minstrels good innings? Of course not. Because their interpretations are a complete twisting of the truth, same goes for socialisation.