GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces?

submitted by womanual from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I don't agree with that at all. If it's their space, they're entitled to have a say in who is allowed to enter.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

By that logic, cis men have the right to insist trans women not enter their spaces.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It's "transwomen" who don't want to use the men's toilets, though.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

There are cases where trans women have been beaten up in men's restrooms, so I guess not all men want them there.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It' s a sex segregated space for males, whether males who don' t call themselves trans want them there or not, the space is built for them as well. (Please, don' t waste time with your usual "BUT THEY ARE FEMALES" ridicoulousness, you know perfectly well that we use the biology-based labels and not the fantasy ones you use)

So no, males don' t have the right to insist another category of males should leave. They do, however, have the right to insist to remove females.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

Not everyone regards trans women as males. I don't. Not everyone uses biology-based definitions.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And on what do you base your definitions? On "gender identity"? How does that work when so far you've been unable to explain to us what a "female gender identity" or a "male" one entails? Laws need to be based on verifiable concepts in order to work in the real world. How do you know who is being honest about their "gender identity" and who is taking full advantage of the new laws and rules? Or do you think that "gender identity" is the one thing that humans are absolutely unable to lie about? Do you apply this same flexibility about identity on other areas like age, race, nationality, height, etcetera? For instance, if someone claims to be literally a cat, should we be mandated by law to affirm their "identity"? If you don't, why do you regard that biological sex is the one concept that should not be named?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If we' re talking about sex segregated spaces, the definitions to use should be, surprisingly, sex based. And sex is a biological feature.

I know, mind blown!!!!!!

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My point was it doesn't matter what men who don't claim a "trans identity" think about this because it's "transwomen" who are are self-excluding from the men's restrooms that they are entitled to.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Citations please.

Also, there are cases where trans women have beaten up men in men's restrooms. Paris Lees, now a celebrity trans woman in the UK, served time in a (male) juvenile detention facility for taking part in a gang assault of an elderly gay man who later died of his injuries. As a teen, Lees was in a crew of gay youths who hung around public loos known for "cottaging" looking for men who'd pay them for sex - and for men to rob and beat up.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I Googled Paris Lees, and she did serve prison for 8 months at the age of 18 for a robbery. At 14 she began prostituting, but later recognized she was a victim of statutory rape. She dropped out of college and ended up doing drugs. I could not find a story of Lees taking part in a gang assault of an elderly gay man so if you could link to it that would be great. However, at age 14 she went into a public toilet cubicle with an older man and had sex.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I don't think the vast majority of men care. But if these are male spaces, then all natal males have a right to go in. I doubt trans women would want to, though.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

That is different than my experience. I have encountered hostility in the vast majority of male spaces, only physically attacked once but very much had it made clear I wasn’t welcome. You vastly underestimate how much men hate trans women.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Do you think the vast majority of men would say you're not entitled to use the men's restroom?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I can’t speak to percentages but certainly enough that it’s not safe for me to be there.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think almost all of them would say you're entitled to be there, but I also don't think your concern for your safety is unwarranted. That's why I support third spaces.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You can’t say they would say we are entitled to be there while attacking us. That makes no sense.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Almost all men are not going to be the ones attacking you. If you ask them, "do you think a natal male is entitled to be in a men's restroom?" overwhelmingly they would say "yes."

You would be entitled to be there because it's a place for natal male people, regardless of how gender nonconforming they are.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That’s blank conjecture. You would get many no’s and many “why would they”s