QT: Can men compete in women's sports if they meet all the same requirements of transwomen?

submitted by FlanJam from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes, sports teams and clubs are often about more than competition, but in advancing this POV let's not underestimate that for many girls and women competition and winning are of paramount importance.

I'm wary of overemphasizing the importance of collegiality, fitness, feeling good and other non-competitive aspects of sports for girls and women because the idea that girls and women mainly or solely value and do sports for the social connections, team building, fitness, personal satisfaction, etc, can be used against us to argue that therefore girls and women women won't or shouldn't mind if all the prizes and records girls' and women's sports start going to males. Since girls and women weren't in sports to score, win and set records anyways, the typical spiel goes, what's it to them if none of them are on the podium or record books any more?

Also, lots of sports are more about individual performance than about team performance - and many sports are primarily pursued and practiced on an individual basis, not a through teams. People who do track & field, swim, dive, ski, tennis, golf, surf, lift weights, endurance sports and so on often train and compete mainly as individuals. They might be on teams theoretically, or in certain situations, and they might participate in certain team events (like track or swim relays). But unlike in soccer, basketball, field hockey, baseball, softball etc, people in a lot of sports often are mainly in it for themselves.

Moreover, in sports that are mainly about individual accomplishments, a lot of the strongest social bonds and greatest comradery occur between competitors who are each other's main rivals. Like with the boxers Joe Louis and Max Schmeling. One of the aspects I found so intriguing and exciting about women's pro tennis back in the day was the intense rivalry between Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert on the court, and their close friendship and support for one another off the court.

Finally, even when athletes are in team sports, certain individuals on teams always stand out and get the most attention and focus. Megan Rapinoe of the USA national women's soccer team. Sue Bird and Brittney Griner of the WNBA. Tom Brady of the Patriots. Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Roger Maris, Derek Jeter of the NY Yankees.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Idk that bringing it up at all is over emphasis but cheers.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I didn't mean to imply that bringing it up is overemphasis. Sorry for giving that impression. I'm not at my best right now.

But IRL and in online convos about this, including on sports sites, a point that often gets made to justify allowing trans-identified males AND males with DSDs like Caster Semenya to invade and win in women's sports is that girls and women don't care that much about winning, setting records and getting sports glory in the first place coz due to our (supposedly) naturally less competitive, cut-throat and ambitious nature, we do sports for other reasons. Also, because it's supposedly in our nature to take our lumps and lose with grace. Whereas for males - even ones who claim to be women - winning, setting records and getting glory are supposedly essential for their mental wellbeing. Or so the reasoning goes.

To this way of thinking, depriving girls and women of the chance to win, place or get in the record books - no big deal coz those things don't really matter to us; we supposedly do sports just to be sociable, and most of us are happy sitting on the bench or being bumped off the roster altogether. But to deprive a Caster Semenya or Ragehell McKinnon of the chance to win, place and get in the record books is grossly unfair, a moral outrage and major human rights violation!

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

a point that often gets made to justify allowing trans-identified males AND males with DSDs like Caster Semenya to invade and win in women's sports is that girls and women don't care that much about winning, setting records and getting sports glory in the first place coz due to our (supposedly) naturally less competitive, cut-throat and ambitious nature, we do sports for other reasons.

Christ, I don't follow anything sports-related, but I'm not at all surprised that these points would get made and probably with people legitimately not even realising how misogynistic they're being. Trans activism is so full of these gross bioessentialist arguments that are all of a sudden getting feminists on board who I feel just a decade ago would've been at your throat if you implied a female brain made women meek and submissive.