For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom?

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[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The subject was whether women think there is any need for sexed bathrooms, not whether they support trans people. Most women are woefully unaware of what supporting trans rights actually means for their own rights, so supporting trans people doesn't actually mean they're willing to forego their own rights. If you go beyond the most extreme progressives who live more in their heads and their little queer bubble than the real world, you'll find that plenty of women are positively shocked at the idea that their spaces and sports should be erased out of existence.

Moreover, the women who start noticing something fishy are quickly made to fall back in line by being called bigots, bitches, rude, uptight etc. (basically the same tactics that liberal feminism always uses to shame women who refuse to play nice with the patriarchy). Gendered socialisation and the overall dismissal of the patriarchy in liberal circles gets used against women all the time because doing otherwise would get the male liberals pissy. Hence why liberal men keep pushing their patriarchal interests and making a mockery of feminism that they claim to represent, while women just keep endlessly assuaging men and promising them that they can still have their porn and prostitutes even if they can't be sexually harassed at work. It's not that women actually feel a need to support their own abuse and oppression that's objectively bad for them, it's that the power imbalance and socialisation goes in male favour, and women as always have to keep their heads down and know their place so as not to alienate their male "allies". So you get absurd things like women talking about some supposed pandemic of female-on-male rape and how dangerous women are to male trans people in their bathrooms and how not-misandrist feminism is against those poor men and how men jerking off into prostitutes is actually sexual liberation, while the male liberals keep making (usually bioessentialist) excuses for various aspects of rape culture and double standards against women, but claim it's all k because they support gay marriage. The people who barely cause any issues in these areas spend a disproportionate amount of time apologising, moderating themselves and claiming they'll do better on problems that they're not causing, while the ones actually causing the issues write them off as persecution, make excuses, or sweep it under the rug as something everyone's guilty of anyways.

Nevertheless, the negative effects on women's freedoms and safety are going to happen whether women virtue signal that they're ok with it or not, just as they keep happening even in countries where women think they're at fault for getting gang-raped for leaving the house without their husbands. Women believing they don't deserve rights and protections doesn't actually make the need for them unnecessary. Women still deserve not to be assaulted, harassed, killed, stalked, beaten etc. even if they feel they don't deserve any better.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The subject was whether women think there is any need for sexed bathrooms, not whether they support trans people.

Yes, but a study shows women are less likely to think we need sexed bathrooms. Granted, the question asked should trans individuals be required to use restrooms that match their sex assigned at birth. There should have been an option that only trans women should be required to use restrooms that match their sex assigned at birth but not trans men. But most likely women would be OK with trans women using women's restrooms than men. A poll said 59% of men support banning trans women in women's sports compared to 46% of women. Plus, women are more likely than men to support progressive causes. So I can reasonably conclude more women than men would be OK with trans women using women's restrooms.

Most women are woefully unaware of what supporting trans rights actually means for their own rights, so supporting trans people doesn't actually mean they're willing to forego their own rights.

Yup, women are too stupid and ignorant to realize what trans rights means. /s

Most of us are aware of what supporting trans rights means. We just disagree that sex-segregated spaces are a right. Take BabyCenter for example, it's mostly cis women on there. On the Debate Team there are often intelligent discuss about systemic racism, sexism and other societal issues, as well as other groups on the site. There was recently an intelligent discussion about women being expected to have more modesty than men.

https://community.babycenter.com/post/a77379175/are-women-expected-to-have-more-modesty-than-men

Yet that forum still supports trans rights, including that misgendering is rude and trans people should have the restrooms that match their gender identity. r/socialjustice101 also supports this, and they also have intelligent discussions.

Yet according to some people on Ovarit, those of us who support trans rights lack critical thinking skills. We don't. I have critical thinking skills and frequently discuss double standards women and men face with family and friends, as well as why I support or oppose a particular candidate, ableism and many other issues. Yet I still support trans rights. Most women who support trans rights know what it entails, we just don't agree with GC feminism what women's rights are.

Moreover, the women who start noticing something fishy are quickly made to fall back in line by being called bigots, bitches, rude, uptight etc.

We do the same with people who are racist, ableist, etc. I know you don't consider your anti-trans views bigoted but we do.

Gendered socialisation and the overall dismissal of the patriarchy in liberal circles gets used against women all the time because doing otherwise would get the male liberals pissy.

Most liberal circles do not dismiss patriarchy. Everyday Feminism talks about patriarchy all the time as well as other liberal circles. Perhaps it could be liberal feminism and gender critical feminism disagree on what patriarchy is. Female liberals get pissy as well.

Hence why liberal men keep pushing their patriarchal interests and making a mockery of feminism that they claim to represent, while women just keep endlessly assuaging men and promising them that they can still have their porn and prostitutes even if they can't be sexually harassed at work.

Watching porn should be a personal choice. Sexual harassment should not be tolerated in workplaces.

So you get absurd things like women talking about some supposed pandemic of female-on-male rape and how dangerous women are to male trans people in their bathrooms and how not-misandrist feminism is against those poor men and how men jerking off into prostitutes is actually sexual liberation, while the male liberals keep making (usually bioessentialist) excuses for various aspects of rape culture and double standards against women, but claim it's all k because they support gay marriage.

Acknowledging that women rape men too is not oppressive. Most liberal feminists fight against double standards and rape culture.