For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom?

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[–]FlanJam 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I think the burden is on you to say why we should take them away. Single sex restrooms are already the norm, most people are happy with them, and there isn't any issue with them that couldn't be solved with the addition of a 3rd unisex room. So to take them away is a really extreme move to make, you'd need a very compelling reason to do so. And I don't think saying there's no need for them is a strong enough reason even if it were true.

But I do think there are good reasons for single sex spaces, mainly safety and privacy. I don't have the source on hand but I read a statistic somewhere that women are more likely to be harassed in unisex bathrooms compared to women's restrooms. And anecdotally I've heard so many stories of women using the restroom to get away from creepy dudes. Not to mention issues with spycams, peeping toms, or just weird pervs getting off to women pissing.

And on the privacy side, periods are so stigmatized in many cultures. Dealing with that around men only makes it more difficult. Some men get pissy just at the sight of a pad or tampon. Or how about religious women who need to fix their hijab? Or what about women who simply don't wanna be around men when she feels vulnerable? A thin 1 inch stall wall between you and a man isn't very comforting.

But the main point is, why take them away if most people are happy with them, and there's no problem with them? It just seems needlessly destructive to me.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Single sex restrooms are already the norm, most people are happy with them, and there isn't any issue with them that couldn't be solved with the addition of a 3rd unisex room.

How do you know most people are happy with them? Is there a survey?

[–]FlanJam 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Don't take this the wrong way but I've noticed you like to answer back with questions that don't really address the main point? Perhaps this thread has run its course, which is fine. No I dont have a survey of how many people are happy with single sex restrooms, its just an assumption but its doesn't change the argument. Which is, single sex restrooms provide safety & privacy, and no one is really pushing to remove them, so it seems rather destructive to get rid of them.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I remember there was a survey someone posted about how many women are comfortable with non-passing pre-op male trans people in their bathrooms. Sadly I don't have the link, but honestly, this is one of those things that are so fucking obvious you shouldn't even need to make a study confirming the obvious result. It's like making a study asking if women enjoy unprompted dick pics or getting groped by strangers, and then acting like their feelings on the matter are a mystery unless said studies are provided.

Don't take this the wrong way but I've noticed you like to answer back with questions that don't really address the main point?

I used to think they were asking these questions because they were actually thinking about the answers they were getting, turns out it's just a lazy derailment tactic and they'd be back to parroting the same old disproven arguments the next time they reappeared.

[–]FlanJam 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh yea, I remember a survey like that. QT uses it a lot to 'prove' everyone is transphobic. But yeah, even without that, i think its a pretty safe assumption to make? If people aren't content with single sex spaces you'd expect to see a lot of activists advocating for unisex only spaces. But we don't see that at all.

Last time genderbend asked me a question, I asked her to respond to my question first and she did. So I give her the benefit of the doubt that she's an honest interlocutor. But yes, it honestly does feel like a rhetorical strategy rather than a substantive point.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh yeah, I wasn't talking about GenderBender specifically, just trans rights activists in general, like, almost every one of them. The whole "asking questions to derail and ignore the other points made" tactic is pretty popular with them. It creates the illusion that the conversation is two-sided without addressing a single thing. With trans rights activists it's almost always just a limited and repetitive selection of derailment tactics that might as well be copy-pasted every time because of how disconnected they are from anything being said (by design). Anything acknowledging the violence that men put women through is especially likely to get ignored or straight up denied, because it doesn't bode with the liberal notions of "Karens being bitches to trans people", and women being divisionary misandrists against men who just want nice things :,(

[–]FlanJam 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

True, true. They rather be on the offensive, poking holes in other people's ideas. But rarely do they ever flesh out and defend their own position. I still don't understand how they can account for things like misogyny and patriarchy if sex doesn't matter to them.