For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom?

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (20 children)

Oh look, it's the person who's continuously lied and ignored the statistics of male violence over women and the resulting need for women's spaces! You wanna disappear again?

Whether I lied or didn't lie about statistics of male violence, I still believe all public facilities should be unisex.

Right, it's the women's fault that they can't live their lives and share spaces with men normally without the men using every opportunity to prey on them. They should just learn to accept these things as a normal, quirky part of life with men instead of being exclusionary bigots and putting petty fears like not wanting to get raped, assaulted and killed over male desires to prey on them even more easily.

I wrote "unless someone is bothering you or committing a crime, you have no business confronting them." Yes, if someone is sexually harassing you or trying to rape you, etc. you have a right to call the police, complain to the manager or local authority and you always had that right. What you don't have the right to do is to confront random strangers for no reason or question their presence. That is harassment.

Agreed. You know how it also should be? That women don't get perved on and stalked by creepy men, or be surrounded by men's misogynistic comments or get asked to do sexual favours for men.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, there will always be evil people in this world. This is why we have the criminal justice system to prosecute and incarcerate rapists and stalkers. Let's make it better!

[–]FlanJam 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I still believe all public facilities should be unisex

Why not both? Have women's, men's, and unisex. That way people have a choice of which they are most comfortable with.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

But why do we need that? Restrooms are already separated by stalls. so it's not like we're seeing people naked. I believe locker rooms should be separated by stalls, because I don't believe people should have to see naked people to change, regardless of what kind of genitalia they have.

[–]FlanJam 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I think the burden is on you to say why we should take them away. Single sex restrooms are already the norm, most people are happy with them, and there isn't any issue with them that couldn't be solved with the addition of a 3rd unisex room. So to take them away is a really extreme move to make, you'd need a very compelling reason to do so. And I don't think saying there's no need for them is a strong enough reason even if it were true.

But I do think there are good reasons for single sex spaces, mainly safety and privacy. I don't have the source on hand but I read a statistic somewhere that women are more likely to be harassed in unisex bathrooms compared to women's restrooms. And anecdotally I've heard so many stories of women using the restroom to get away from creepy dudes. Not to mention issues with spycams, peeping toms, or just weird pervs getting off to women pissing.

And on the privacy side, periods are so stigmatized in many cultures. Dealing with that around men only makes it more difficult. Some men get pissy just at the sight of a pad or tampon. Or how about religious women who need to fix their hijab? Or what about women who simply don't wanna be around men when she feels vulnerable? A thin 1 inch stall wall between you and a man isn't very comforting.

But the main point is, why take them away if most people are happy with them, and there's no problem with them? It just seems needlessly destructive to me.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Single sex restrooms are already the norm, most people are happy with them, and there isn't any issue with them that couldn't be solved with the addition of a 3rd unisex room.

How do you know most people are happy with them? Is there a survey?

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Women and feminists are the whole reason we have sexed bathrooms in the first place, so women have made their feelings on the matter very clear. As for what men think about women's rights and protections, who gives a shit?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Actually, women are more likely to support transgender people than men,

In a PPRI study, 51% of men support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth, compared to 40% of women.

According to a poll, 59% of men support banning trans women in women's sports compared tp 46% of women. 29% of men oppose banning trans women in women's sports compared to 34% of women.

Also, the mainstream feminist movement supports trans women (and trans men).

[–]pollyesther 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Maybe it's because men know what other men are like and what other men are capable of doing.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

lol women are perfectly aware of what men are capable off. The vast, vast majority of them have been at least sexually harassed by men, many worse than that. Most already modify their movements and language, even if subconsciously, to this threat of male violence or even just overall misogyny. Nah, women know exactly what men are capable of doing, but female socialisation in an androcentric world is a powerful drug, so they're pretty much never allowed to prioritise their own interests as that would be "rude", "misandrist" and "bitchy".

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The subject was whether women think there is any need for sexed bathrooms, not whether they support trans people. Most women are woefully unaware of what supporting trans rights actually means for their own rights, so supporting trans people doesn't actually mean they're willing to forego their own rights. If you go beyond the most extreme progressives who live more in their heads and their little queer bubble than the real world, you'll find that plenty of women are positively shocked at the idea that their spaces and sports should be erased out of existence.

Moreover, the women who start noticing something fishy are quickly made to fall back in line by being called bigots, bitches, rude, uptight etc. (basically the same tactics that liberal feminism always uses to shame women who refuse to play nice with the patriarchy). Gendered socialisation and the overall dismissal of the patriarchy in liberal circles gets used against women all the time because doing otherwise would get the male liberals pissy. Hence why liberal men keep pushing their patriarchal interests and making a mockery of feminism that they claim to represent, while women just keep endlessly assuaging men and promising them that they can still have their porn and prostitutes even if they can't be sexually harassed at work. It's not that women actually feel a need to support their own abuse and oppression that's objectively bad for them, it's that the power imbalance and socialisation goes in male favour, and women as always have to keep their heads down and know their place so as not to alienate their male "allies". So you get absurd things like women talking about some supposed pandemic of female-on-male rape and how dangerous women are to male trans people in their bathrooms and how not-misandrist feminism is against those poor men and how men jerking off into prostitutes is actually sexual liberation, while the male liberals keep making (usually bioessentialist) excuses for various aspects of rape culture and double standards against women, but claim it's all k because they support gay marriage. The people who barely cause any issues in these areas spend a disproportionate amount of time apologising, moderating themselves and claiming they'll do better on problems that they're not causing, while the ones actually causing the issues write them off as persecution, make excuses, or sweep it under the rug as something everyone's guilty of anyways.

Nevertheless, the negative effects on women's freedoms and safety are going to happen whether women virtue signal that they're ok with it or not, just as they keep happening even in countries where women think they're at fault for getting gang-raped for leaving the house without their husbands. Women believing they don't deserve rights and protections doesn't actually make the need for them unnecessary. Women still deserve not to be assaulted, harassed, killed, stalked, beaten etc. even if they feel they don't deserve any better.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The subject was whether women think there is any need for sexed bathrooms, not whether they support trans people.

Yes, but a study shows women are less likely to think we need sexed bathrooms. Granted, the question asked should trans individuals be required to use restrooms that match their sex assigned at birth. There should have been an option that only trans women should be required to use restrooms that match their sex assigned at birth but not trans men. But most likely women would be OK with trans women using women's restrooms than men. A poll said 59% of men support banning trans women in women's sports compared to 46% of women. Plus, women are more likely than men to support progressive causes. So I can reasonably conclude more women than men would be OK with trans women using women's restrooms.

Most women are woefully unaware of what supporting trans rights actually means for their own rights, so supporting trans people doesn't actually mean they're willing to forego their own rights.

Yup, women are too stupid and ignorant to realize what trans rights means. /s

Most of us are aware of what supporting trans rights means. We just disagree that sex-segregated spaces are a right. Take BabyCenter for example, it's mostly cis women on there. On the Debate Team there are often intelligent discuss about systemic racism, sexism and other societal issues, as well as other groups on the site. There was recently an intelligent discussion about women being expected to have more modesty than men.

https://community.babycenter.com/post/a77379175/are-women-expected-to-have-more-modesty-than-men

Yet that forum still supports trans rights, including that misgendering is rude and trans people should have the restrooms that match their gender identity. r/socialjustice101 also supports this, and they also have intelligent discussions.

Yet according to some people on Ovarit, those of us who support trans rights lack critical thinking skills. We don't. I have critical thinking skills and frequently discuss double standards women and men face with family and friends, as well as why I support or oppose a particular candidate, ableism and many other issues. Yet I still support trans rights. Most women who support trans rights know what it entails, we just don't agree with GC feminism what women's rights are.

Moreover, the women who start noticing something fishy are quickly made to fall back in line by being called bigots, bitches, rude, uptight etc.

We do the same with people who are racist, ableist, etc. I know you don't consider your anti-trans views bigoted but we do.

Gendered socialisation and the overall dismissal of the patriarchy in liberal circles gets used against women all the time because doing otherwise would get the male liberals pissy.

Most liberal circles do not dismiss patriarchy. Everyday Feminism talks about patriarchy all the time as well as other liberal circles. Perhaps it could be liberal feminism and gender critical feminism disagree on what patriarchy is. Female liberals get pissy as well.

Hence why liberal men keep pushing their patriarchal interests and making a mockery of feminism that they claim to represent, while women just keep endlessly assuaging men and promising them that they can still have their porn and prostitutes even if they can't be sexually harassed at work.

Watching porn should be a personal choice. Sexual harassment should not be tolerated in workplaces.

So you get absurd things like women talking about some supposed pandemic of female-on-male rape and how dangerous women are to male trans people in their bathrooms and how not-misandrist feminism is against those poor men and how men jerking off into prostitutes is actually sexual liberation, while the male liberals keep making (usually bioessentialist) excuses for various aspects of rape culture and double standards against women, but claim it's all k because they support gay marriage.

Acknowledging that women rape men too is not oppressive. Most liberal feminists fight against double standards and rape culture.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

You got a survey saying most women love your idea of making their toilets unisex? Which subreddit did you use as your model for the opinions of the worlds women? One populated almost exclusively by tra supporting men no doubt?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

"Which subreddit did you use as your model for the opinions of the worlds women?"

r/asktransgender r/traaaaaaaaaaaans r/transcirclejerk

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Don’t forget twox, the libfem haven run and populated mostly by men.

[–]FlanJam 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Don't take this the wrong way but I've noticed you like to answer back with questions that don't really address the main point? Perhaps this thread has run its course, which is fine. No I dont have a survey of how many people are happy with single sex restrooms, its just an assumption but its doesn't change the argument. Which is, single sex restrooms provide safety & privacy, and no one is really pushing to remove them, so it seems rather destructive to get rid of them.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I remember there was a survey someone posted about how many women are comfortable with non-passing pre-op male trans people in their bathrooms. Sadly I don't have the link, but honestly, this is one of those things that are so fucking obvious you shouldn't even need to make a study confirming the obvious result. It's like making a study asking if women enjoy unprompted dick pics or getting groped by strangers, and then acting like their feelings on the matter are a mystery unless said studies are provided.

Don't take this the wrong way but I've noticed you like to answer back with questions that don't really address the main point?

I used to think they were asking these questions because they were actually thinking about the answers they were getting, turns out it's just a lazy derailment tactic and they'd be back to parroting the same old disproven arguments the next time they reappeared.

[–]FlanJam 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh yea, I remember a survey like that. QT uses it a lot to 'prove' everyone is transphobic. But yeah, even without that, i think its a pretty safe assumption to make? If people aren't content with single sex spaces you'd expect to see a lot of activists advocating for unisex only spaces. But we don't see that at all.

Last time genderbend asked me a question, I asked her to respond to my question first and she did. So I give her the benefit of the doubt that she's an honest interlocutor. But yes, it honestly does feel like a rhetorical strategy rather than a substantive point.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh yeah, I wasn't talking about GenderBender specifically, just trans rights activists in general, like, almost every one of them. The whole "asking questions to derail and ignore the other points made" tactic is pretty popular with them. It creates the illusion that the conversation is two-sided without addressing a single thing. With trans rights activists it's almost always just a limited and repetitive selection of derailment tactics that might as well be copy-pasted every time because of how disconnected they are from anything being said (by design). Anything acknowledging the violence that men put women through is especially likely to get ignored or straight up denied, because it doesn't bode with the liberal notions of "Karens being bitches to trans people", and women being divisionary misandrists against men who just want nice things :,(

[–]FlanJam 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

True, true. They rather be on the offensive, poking holes in other people's ideas. But rarely do they ever flesh out and defend their own position. I still don't understand how they can account for things like misogyny and patriarchy if sex doesn't matter to them.