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[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

A helpful way to illustrate the issues here is to look at the matter of conventions and laws regarding the use of other kinds of public resources, such as roadways and sidewalks.

Used to be, roads were for - and shared by - pedestrians, people on horseback and in vehicles drawn by horses or other animals such as mules, or drawn by humans as in the case of rickshaws. Then in the late 19th century bicycles were invented and started to become popular, so the people already in the roads had to budge up a bit to accommodate people on bikes. All good until the 20th century when the internal combustion engine was invented.

Very quickly the roads were filled with automobiles, motorized carriages and motor trucks, crowding out, outpacing and often terrifying the pedestrians, people on horseback and in animal- and human-drawn conveyances, and very often frightening the horses and other animals too. Soon sidewalks were invented, along with road lanes and a plethora of rules governing what kind of vehicles could use the road, who was allowed to drive them, limits on the speeds they were allowed to travel, requirements to use horns, horse blinders, and so on. Which became codified in traffic laws and led to innovations like driver's licenses, traffic signs/lights, traffic police, driving lessons/schools and tests, along with new bureaucracies like DMVs.

In my own lifetime, I've witnessed many conflicts arise over who and what kinds of vehicles get to use public roadways and sidewalks and under what conditions - and changes in the customs and laws around these shared resources have occurred as a a result. Every time a new mode of wheeled transport or recreation comes on the scene - roller skates, kids' bikes with training wheels, skateboards, Segways, razors, roller blades, golf carts, bulky motorized mobility scooters, oversized prams, double-wide strollers, space-hogging jogging strollers, food carts, 18 wheeler trucks, SUVs, super-sized SUVs like the Ford Expedition and Hummers, super-long party limos, super-compacts, mini cars, three-wheeled vehicles like tuk tuks and so on - there has been conflict and discussion about how to incorporate them into the flow of human traffic to be fair to them and to all others using the roadways and sidewalks. Similar conflicts have arisen over the use of paths in parks and nature trails that originally were meant for walkers, hikers, snowshoers, X-C skiers, dog-walkers and people pulling sleds - but over time were increasingly taken over by people on mountain, dirt and BMX-type bikes; snow mobiles; motorized ATVs, etc.

Other conflicts have arisen over the way skateboarders have shown a tendency to move in on, and take over, public places like parks, parking lots and public stairways, along with ramps and handrails meant for people with physical disabilities who use walkers and wheelchairs or need to rely on handrails for balance, strength and stability.

I think today with women's restrooms, change rooms and other female-only spaces we're at a similar juncture to the times in the past (and present) when new kinds of transport and recreational vehicles led to - and continue to cause - conflicts over roadways, sidewalks, foot paths, stairs and other kinds of public amenities meant for specific groups such as persons with mobility issues.

Women and girls who've used, and use, testosterone along with surgeries to remove their breasts and reshape their bodies (such as the internal abdominal prostheses that El Page has had implanted), and who also use penis packers, in order to change their appearance to resemble males and can (try to) "pass" as men or boys have created a predicament for themselves and for the vast majority of girls and women who do not taking testosterone and are not trying to create the pretense/impression that we are male rather than female. Women and girls who've chosen to change their appearance so radically that they look like men to others have to know that their presence in women's loos and other female spaces like locker rooms, change rooms, mat wards, hospital wards, rape refuges etc is bound to be distressing and frightening for many bog standard girls and women. And I've heard many so-called "trans men" acknowledge this.

I think this problem that is of "trans men's" making is also theirs to devise solutions for - solutions that suit not just their sister/fellow "trans men," but which take into account the feelings, needs and sensibilities of the rest of the female population. I don't think it's a problem that should be foisted onto "GC" people and portrayed as one we have an obligation to solve.

BTW, as the poster here who has had more years - nay, decades - using women's restrooms, locker rooms, change rooms, etc than most or all other posters, I can testify that historically the majority of girls and women in the country and region where I've spent most of my life - USA, NY metro area and New England - have not seemed to have had any problems with the presence in such spaces of girls and women who in today's nomenclature would be described as "gender nonconforming" or even "mannish" in appearance and affect. Butch-looking women and girls have always been around, as have women who don't at all conform to today's ridiculous ultra "feminine" dress and grooming standards. Back in the 70s, 80s and 90s, the bulk of women I used to see in loos and locker rooms, as well as in female spaces like breastfeeding support groups and "Mommy and Me" classes, would be considered "GNC" by today's standards. The big difference is that back then, there wasn't a flood of girls and women trying to give the impression that they were not female by taking T, growing and proudly sporting beards, getting their breasts removed and undergoing body-sculpting, wearing penis packers or getting phalloplasties.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I can testify that historically the majority of girls and women in the country and region where I've spent most of my life - USA, NY metro area and New England - have not seemed to have had any problems with the presence in such spaces of girls and women who in today's nomenclature would be described as "gender nonconforming" or even "mannish" in appearance and affect.

The big difference is that back then, there wasn't a flood of girls and women trying to give the impression that they were not female by taking T, growing and proudly sporting beards, getting their breasts removed and undergoing body-sculpting, wearing penis packers or getting phalloplasties.

No, the big difference was that there wasn' t a flood of guys trying to give the impression that they were women. I think that most of the issues towards women who "present" as men or simply aren' t feminine come from the fact that they are worried that those women are, in fact, men. Alternatively, it can be a question of finding hypocrisy unbearable: think of that woman in the Olympics who "identify" as nonbinary and still competes in women' s leagues.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I purposely did not bring up men trying to give the impression that they are women because I thought that this thread was/is specifically about female people who "identify as" "trans men" and have altered their bodies and appearance significantly to give the impression that they are male. Such as Buck Angel, Aaron Kimberly Scott Newgent, Ken Pirie, Aaron Terrell, Chase Strangio, Mars, Aaron George, Stephen Whittle, Freddie McConnell. It's not about the males who are pretending and claiming to be women today.

Nor did I understand this thread to be about all the girls and women who are claiming to be "non binary" today like that Quinn person who played women's soccer/football at the Tokyo Olympics. Also, from my POV, the new "non binary" girls and women with their short hairdos and blue, pink and purple hued dye jobs aren't likely to raise any eyebrows - or even warrant second glance - from most women in women's loos and other spaces coz they don't really come off as all that "GNC" - at least not by the standards of the 70s, 80s and 90s. Lots of women had Annie Lennox- and Grace Jones-style short cuts, buzz cuts and even shaved heads in the 80s and 90 - and in the 70s, "androgyny" was a look aspired to by both sexes, hence the common hairstyles from shoulder length locks to the shag. From the early 70s on, tens of millions of girls and women also wore "unisex" and "masculine" clothing such as Dr Martens, overalls, men's Army surplus, flannel shirts, men's jeans, jackets, shoes, T-shirts, button-downs, cardigans, man-tailored suits and tuxes, mechanics-style jumpsuits, cowboy boots, men's jean jackets, down vests, men's overcoats, parkas, sweatsuits, hats, gloves, briefcases, etc - and we weren't considered "GNC" for doing so. I wore a man-tailored (but made for women) tux with a white wool dinner jacket with satin piping, a red satin cummerbund and black satin trousers to a school prom in 1972 - not to express "gender nonconformity," but coz it was a cool look and the height of cutting-edge style and I got a great bargain on it at a women's discount designer store.

Also, for the record, in the 1970s, 80s and 90s there actually were quite a number of guys in the US (and Canada and the UK) trying to give the impression they were women. And they were trying to barge into women's spaces back then as well. The first time I had personal, face to face experience with such men was in 1974. They were constantly trying to get into women's spaces - such as women's conferences, sports, social gatherings, festivals and the women's gym I used to go to in NYC - in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

Male transvestism, cross-dressing and "trans-sexualism" are not new developments that only cropped up and became visible and an issue for women and women's spaces in the present century. The heyday of the world's "sex change clinics" for male patients such as Georges Burou's world-famous one in Casablanca was in the 1960s and 1970s; the "sex change" clinic for males who wished they were women in Trinidad Colorado was going like gangbusters through the 70s, 80s and 90s. Gore Vidal's novel about a "male to female transsexual" Myra Breckenridge was published in 1968; the movie version starring Raquel Welch as the "MtF" title character came out a few years later. James Jan Morris's memoir of his "transition," Conundrum, was a best-seller in the UK, North America and elsewhere in 1974. Janice Raymond's feminist landmark book The Transsexual Empire came out in 1979. Richard Raskin/Renee Richards, who "transitioned" in the early 1970s made headlines soon after for "becoming a woman" and then suing for the right to play women's professional tennis; Richards won his case in 1976. John Irving's The World According to Garp featuring a former NFL star who became a "male-to-female" transsexual named Roberta Muldoon was published in 1978 and was a worldwide publishing sensation that became a best-seller in multiple different languages.

But whilst male cross-dressers, transvestites and "transsexuals" were well-known and fairly common in the 70s, 80s and 90s, their female counterparts were not. The flood of women taking extreme measures like ingesting T, getting double mastectomies and growing beards to try to look like men is mostly a phenomenon of the 21st century. Though it actually first started in the 1990s, as was documented in Ariel Levy's 2004 book Female Chauvinist Pigs and has been related by a number of women who lived through those times and were greatly affected by the new trend of taking T that emerged amongst some lesbians in places like SF and NYC in the 1990s.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It not being the purpose of the thread doesn' t mean that it should be ignored, especially when it' s likely the main reason why women who present as men are kicked out of women' s spaces and also, probably, why OP has asked the question to begin with trying to use it as a gotcha.

Also, yes, transvestitism isn' t a new concept, but there is a huge difference between a bunch of men doing it and being shamed/mocked for it, not to mention having the law not on their side if they decided to use women' s spaces, and lots of men doing it and being celebrated and legally protected for it in the form of being allowed to use women' s spaces.