For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom?

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (37 children)

On the old GC sub there was a thread1 where one user was in a bar restroom and heard a male-sounding voice so she asked why was there a man in the women’s restroom and the person's friend yelled at her for misgendering this person. For all we know, it could have been a trans man, a detransitioned woman, or maybe a cis woman with a deep voice or has PCOS. I did watch a documentary about detransitioners linked on Ovarit and there was a detrans woman with a male voice obviously caused by testosterone. So I would think this user would treat passing trans men the same way.

There is an Ovarit thread2 where a user said if she finds someone she thinks is a man in women’s restrooms or changing rooms, she will confront them and step in their way if they will not leave, and will even use pepper spray if necessary. The thread stayed up, got 71 upvotes and many users said TRAs are the reason butch/masculine-looking women are being harassed in women's restrooms.

In 2016 in Danbury, CT there was an actual case of a woman harassed in a Walmart bathroom after being mistaken for a trans woman.3 The stranger approached her and said, “You’re disgusting!” and “You don’t belong here!” Imagine if the stranger had pepper spray or had the attitude that she will harass anyone who she thinks is a man. There have been cases where trans women were assaulted killed for using the women's restroom.

In NY it's illegal to harass people for using restrooms that match their gender identity. I like that we have this law. In fact, I think all restrooms should be unisex. Restrooms are separated by stalls, and it shouldn't matter wo is in the next stall unless they are bothering you. I consider questioning random strangers what they're doing in a public place harassment. I know GCs may not think that way. The reason why we have "bathroom bills" is because trans and cis people are being harassed for using the bathroom that matches their gender. Really, unless someone is bothering you or committing a crime, you have no business confronting them. I use whichever restroom is closest, and I don't pay attention to strangers. I just come, do my business and leave. That's how it should be.

References:

1 Was shamed last night for asking why there was a man in the women’s restroom. Reddit, 3 Nov. 2019

2 I’m done. I refuse to allow men in women’s bathrooms or changing rooms. If I think someone using them is a man, I will confront him, and step in his way if he will not leave. Ovarit, 29 Nov. 2020

3 Woman mistaken for transgender harassed in Walmart bathroom The News-Times, 16 May. 2016

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

I think all restrooms should be unisex.

Oh look, it's the person who's continuously lied and ignored the statistics of male violence over women and the resulting need for women's spaces! You wanna disappear again?

I know GCs may not think that way.

Yeah, since we don't base our views on continuously lying and ignoring the statistics of male violence over women and the resulting need for women's spaces, we have sort of a different take on it. It's almost like lying and ignoring all evidence results in different takes compared to people who have a grasp on reality.

Really, unless someone is bothering you or committing a crime, you have no business confronting them.

Right, it's the women's fault that they can't live their lives and share spaces with men normally without the men using every opportunity to prey on them. They should just learn to accept these things as a normal, quirky part of life with men instead of being exclusionary bigots and putting petty fears like not wanting to get raped, assaulted and killed over male desires to prey on them even more easily.

That's how it should be.

Agreed. You know how it also should be? That women don't get perved on and stalked by creepy men, or be surrounded by men's misogynistic comments or get asked to do sexual favours for men. But I guess when you believe that male violence over women is just a conspiracy made by hysterical women, it's not surprising that you're happily blaming women for men ruining their lives to such an extreme that they literally need separate spaces for safety.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (34 children)

Oh look, it's the person who's continuously lied and ignored the statistics of male violence over women and the resulting need for women's spaces! You wanna disappear again?

Whether I lied or didn't lie about statistics of male violence, I still believe all public facilities should be unisex.

Right, it's the women's fault that they can't live their lives and share spaces with men normally without the men using every opportunity to prey on them. They should just learn to accept these things as a normal, quirky part of life with men instead of being exclusionary bigots and putting petty fears like not wanting to get raped, assaulted and killed over male desires to prey on them even more easily.

I wrote "unless someone is bothering you or committing a crime, you have no business confronting them." Yes, if someone is sexually harassing you or trying to rape you, etc. you have a right to call the police, complain to the manager or local authority and you always had that right. What you don't have the right to do is to confront random strangers for no reason or question their presence. That is harassment.

Agreed. You know how it also should be? That women don't get perved on and stalked by creepy men, or be surrounded by men's misogynistic comments or get asked to do sexual favours for men.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, there will always be evil people in this world. This is why we have the criminal justice system to prosecute and incarcerate rapists and stalkers. Let's make it better!

[–]FlanJam 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I still believe all public facilities should be unisex

Why not both? Have women's, men's, and unisex. That way people have a choice of which they are most comfortable with.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

But why do we need that? Restrooms are already separated by stalls. so it's not like we're seeing people naked. I believe locker rooms should be separated by stalls, because I don't believe people should have to see naked people to change, regardless of what kind of genitalia they have.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You won’t respond to this either because you refuse to engage with me but why the hell do you think that what you want trumps the wants of other women who do want the safety and privacy of women’s spaces? What justification is there for taking that away just because you don’t like it? Why is the comfort of women who think differently to you unimportant and something to be disregarded?

[–]FlanJam 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I think the burden is on you to say why we should take them away. Single sex restrooms are already the norm, most people are happy with them, and there isn't any issue with them that couldn't be solved with the addition of a 3rd unisex room. So to take them away is a really extreme move to make, you'd need a very compelling reason to do so. And I don't think saying there's no need for them is a strong enough reason even if it were true.

But I do think there are good reasons for single sex spaces, mainly safety and privacy. I don't have the source on hand but I read a statistic somewhere that women are more likely to be harassed in unisex bathrooms compared to women's restrooms. And anecdotally I've heard so many stories of women using the restroom to get away from creepy dudes. Not to mention issues with spycams, peeping toms, or just weird pervs getting off to women pissing.

And on the privacy side, periods are so stigmatized in many cultures. Dealing with that around men only makes it more difficult. Some men get pissy just at the sight of a pad or tampon. Or how about religious women who need to fix their hijab? Or what about women who simply don't wanna be around men when she feels vulnerable? A thin 1 inch stall wall between you and a man isn't very comforting.

But the main point is, why take them away if most people are happy with them, and there's no problem with them? It just seems needlessly destructive to me.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Single sex restrooms are already the norm, most people are happy with them, and there isn't any issue with them that couldn't be solved with the addition of a 3rd unisex room.

How do you know most people are happy with them? Is there a survey?

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Women and feminists are the whole reason we have sexed bathrooms in the first place, so women have made their feelings on the matter very clear. As for what men think about women's rights and protections, who gives a shit?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Actually, women are more likely to support transgender people than men,

In a PPRI study, 51% of men support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth, compared to 40% of women.

According to a poll, 59% of men support banning trans women in women's sports compared tp 46% of women. 29% of men oppose banning trans women in women's sports compared to 34% of women.

Also, the mainstream feminist movement supports trans women (and trans men).

[–]pollyesther 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Maybe it's because men know what other men are like and what other men are capable of doing.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The subject was whether women think there is any need for sexed bathrooms, not whether they support trans people. Most women are woefully unaware of what supporting trans rights actually means for their own rights, so supporting trans people doesn't actually mean they're willing to forego their own rights. If you go beyond the most extreme progressives who live more in their heads and their little queer bubble than the real world, you'll find that plenty of women are positively shocked at the idea that their spaces and sports should be erased out of existence.

Moreover, the women who start noticing something fishy are quickly made to fall back in line by being called bigots, bitches, rude, uptight etc. (basically the same tactics that liberal feminism always uses to shame women who refuse to play nice with the patriarchy). Gendered socialisation and the overall dismissal of the patriarchy in liberal circles gets used against women all the time because doing otherwise would get the male liberals pissy. Hence why liberal men keep pushing their patriarchal interests and making a mockery of feminism that they claim to represent, while women just keep endlessly assuaging men and promising them that they can still have their porn and prostitutes even if they can't be sexually harassed at work. It's not that women actually feel a need to support their own abuse and oppression that's objectively bad for them, it's that the power imbalance and socialisation goes in male favour, and women as always have to keep their heads down and know their place so as not to alienate their male "allies". So you get absurd things like women talking about some supposed pandemic of female-on-male rape and how dangerous women are to male trans people in their bathrooms and how not-misandrist feminism is against those poor men and how men jerking off into prostitutes is actually sexual liberation, while the male liberals keep making (usually bioessentialist) excuses for various aspects of rape culture and double standards against women, but claim it's all k because they support gay marriage. The people who barely cause any issues in these areas spend a disproportionate amount of time apologising, moderating themselves and claiming they'll do better on problems that they're not causing, while the ones actually causing the issues write them off as persecution, make excuses, or sweep it under the rug as something everyone's guilty of anyways.

Nevertheless, the negative effects on women's freedoms and safety are going to happen whether women virtue signal that they're ok with it or not, just as they keep happening even in countries where women think they're at fault for getting gang-raped for leaving the house without their husbands. Women believing they don't deserve rights and protections doesn't actually make the need for them unnecessary. Women still deserve not to be assaulted, harassed, killed, stalked, beaten etc. even if they feel they don't deserve any better.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

You got a survey saying most women love your idea of making their toilets unisex? Which subreddit did you use as your model for the opinions of the worlds women? One populated almost exclusively by tra supporting men no doubt?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

"Which subreddit did you use as your model for the opinions of the worlds women?"

r/asktransgender r/traaaaaaaaaaaans r/transcirclejerk

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Don’t forget twox, the libfem haven run and populated mostly by men.

[–]FlanJam 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Don't take this the wrong way but I've noticed you like to answer back with questions that don't really address the main point? Perhaps this thread has run its course, which is fine. No I dont have a survey of how many people are happy with single sex restrooms, its just an assumption but its doesn't change the argument. Which is, single sex restrooms provide safety & privacy, and no one is really pushing to remove them, so it seems rather destructive to get rid of them.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I remember there was a survey someone posted about how many women are comfortable with non-passing pre-op male trans people in their bathrooms. Sadly I don't have the link, but honestly, this is one of those things that are so fucking obvious you shouldn't even need to make a study confirming the obvious result. It's like making a study asking if women enjoy unprompted dick pics or getting groped by strangers, and then acting like their feelings on the matter are a mystery unless said studies are provided.

Don't take this the wrong way but I've noticed you like to answer back with questions that don't really address the main point?

I used to think they were asking these questions because they were actually thinking about the answers they were getting, turns out it's just a lazy derailment tactic and they'd be back to parroting the same old disproven arguments the next time they reappeared.

[–]FlanJam 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh yea, I remember a survey like that. QT uses it a lot to 'prove' everyone is transphobic. But yeah, even without that, i think its a pretty safe assumption to make? If people aren't content with single sex spaces you'd expect to see a lot of activists advocating for unisex only spaces. But we don't see that at all.

Last time genderbend asked me a question, I asked her to respond to my question first and she did. So I give her the benefit of the doubt that she's an honest interlocutor. But yes, it honestly does feel like a rhetorical strategy rather than a substantive point.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You have to be Fuckin trolling with that last bit oh my god. Nobody could be that daft

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Whether I lied or didn't lie about statistics of male violence, I still believe all public facilities should be unisex.

Right. Why let facts and reality get in the way of what you "believe"? If you believe the Earth is flat, and the moon is made of cheese, then don't let anyone tell u otherwise, boo 😘

Yes, if someone is sexually harassing you or trying to rape you, etc. you have a right to call the police, complain to the manager or local authority and you always had that right.

Yup, when women get raped or assaulted, they should just call a time-out with their attacker until they call the police or sue them. And as we all know, justice rarely fails women in this area, and the biggest problem those privileged women face is being so overburdened by non-stop police reports that they can't function in day-to-day life normally, in which case, they should stop being such hysterical over-reacting misandrists. Now, sure, women will be traumatised to the point of fearing being in public even more than they already are, but at least they can rest assured that they can complain to the manager afterwards and leave a one-star rating.

What you don't have the right to do is to confront random strangers for no reason or question their presence. That is harassment.

If a space excludes them for safety reasons, then those strangers have no business being there in the first place. Does a person who breaks into your home need to kill you or rape you before you can do anything about it?

I agree with you.

Uuuh, no, you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't be lying through your teeth, sweeping the issue under the rug, parroting misogynistic myths and trying to remove protections and rights of vulnerable groups. Saying "I'm not sexist, but..." is not the fool-proof disclaimer you seem to think it is.

Unfortunately, there will always be evil people in this world.

I love how you say "people", like a well-trained parrot. Nothing whatsoever suspicious about the fact that sexual assault is committed almost exclusively by men to the point of most women's lives being controlled and endangered by this fact. Nah, it's just "evil people", because that lets us lie and gaslight everyone about a pandemic of male sexual violence and pretend it's everyone's problem.

This is why we have the criminal justice system to prosecute and incarcerate rapists and stalkers. Let's make it better!

By removing women's protections and only allowing them to confront their attackers after they've already been raped, because they're being such exclusionary misandrists towards the men consistently ruining their lives.

Victim-blaming women and shaming them for what misandrists they are because they're victimised and have their lives ruined by men is very feminist. After all, you only need to "feel" and "believe" that way, and that's it.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

Right. Why let facts and reality get in the way of what you "believe"? If you believe the Earth is flat, and the moon is made of cheese, then don't let anyone tell u otherwise, boo 😘

I believe all public facilities should be unisex. You believe all public facilities should be segregated by birth sex.

Yup, when women get raped or assaulted, they should just call a time-out with their attacker until they call the police or sue them. And as we all know, justice rarely fails women in this area, and the biggest problem those privileged women face is being so overburdened by non-stop police reports that they can't function in day-to-day life normally, in which case, they should stop being such hysterical over-reacting misandrists. Now, sure, women will be traumatised to the point of fearing being in public even more than they already are, but at least they can rest assured that they can complain to the manager afterwards and leave a one-star rating.

In that case we should be focusing our activism on reforming the criminal justice system, not self-ID or OnlyFans.

If a space excludes them for safety reasons, then those strangers have no business being there in the first place. Does a person who breaks into your home need to kill you or rape you before you can do anything about it?

If a space is open to the general public, it has no business excluding any demographic.

Uuuh, no, you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't be lying through your teeth, sweeping the issue under the rug, parroting misogynistic myths and trying to remove protections and rights of vulnerable groups. Saying "I'm not sexist, but..." is not the fool-proof disclaimer you seem to think it is.

I agree with you that women should not be perved on and stalked by creepy men. I don't agree that public facilities should be segregated by birth sex.

I love how you say "people", like a well-trained parrot. Nothing whatsoever suspicious about the fact that sexual assault is committed almost exclusively by men to the point of most women's lives being controlled and endangered by this fact. Nah, it's just "evil people", because that lets us lie and gaslight everyone about a pandemic of male sexual violence and pretend it's everyone's problem.

As a cis woman who has been harassed and assaulted by both cis women and cis men, I purposefully say "people" to include everyone.

By removing women's protections and only allowing them to confront their attackers after they've already been raped, because they're being such exclusionary misandrists towards the men consistently ruining their lives.

Victim-blaming women and shaming them for what misandrists they are because they're victimized and have their lives ruined by men is very feminist. After all, you only need to "feel" and "believe" that way, and that's it.

Just because you are a victim of a crime doesn't mean you get to harass random people in public.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I believe all public facilities should be unisex. You believe all public facilities should be segregated by birth sex.

Uh, yes, I know. We've...established this? We've also established why your view is wrong. You seem to think that saying that you have a belief somehow makes it valid by virtue of it being a belief, and when faced with the reasons why your belief is faulty, you default to repeating that you hold a belief. Honestly, this seems like a comedy sketch where someone's trying to explain something to a very stupid person who just keeps repeating the same sentence no matter what evidence the other person gives them.

In that case we should be focusing our activism on reforming the criminal justice system, not self-ID or OnlyFans.

Right, don't focus on what's actively contributing to ruining women's lives en masse at this very moment, focus on "reforming the criminal justice system", whatever that means (could women even have lives if they took every man being inappropriate or a creep to court?). Make it easier for men to prey on women and let even more women get harassed, assaulted and traumatised, but at least tell women they won't be misandrist bigots anymore and that they'll surely get justice afterwards. What's most important is that we've upheld the rule of always blaming women for men ruining their lives.

If a space is open to the general public, it has no business excluding any demographic.

Becauseee...you say so, and your word is law? Why excuse me, your majesty. I would've agreed that the Earth is flat had I known whose presence I was graced with.

I mean...why even have toilet stalls, then? Or changing rooms? After all, you're being "exclusionary". A row of toilets in a single room should be enough, and changing rooms aren't needed because people can just change out in the open. Also, no lockers should be provided in any sort of public space because anyone should have the right to snoop through anyone's stuff as long as they're in public.

Hell, why even have private property at all? If a space exists on city grounds, it has no business excluding anyone from it, right?

I agree with you that women should not be perved on and stalked by creepy men.

So, you consistently lie and lie through your teeth about this reality that women endure, but at least you're such a goody two-shoes that you oh so kindly fantasise about a beautiful world filled with rainbows where this simply doesn't happen. Aaand that's supposed to make your constant lying and sabotaging of attempts to improve things somehow better.

I don't agree that public facilities should be segregated by birth sex.

"I believe the Earth is flat."

"Uh, no, we've literally got pics from space of the Earth, all the other planets are spherical, boats disappear when they sail beyond the horizon and..."

"I believe the Earth is flat."

Literally a comedy sketch.

As a cis woman who has been harassed and assaulted by both cis women and cis men, I purposefully say "people" to include everyone.

Yeeeah, either you're an extreme outlier or you're twisting what happened due to the constant misogynistic biases you've shown to parrot. Both cases make your experiences irrelevant to the topic at large. You can tell me a random child has beaten you with a baseball bat, that still wouldn't render child protection irrelevant and create a need for legalisation to protect adults from children.

Just because you are a victim of a crime doesn't mean you get to harass random people in public.

No, it just means that the victims overwhelmingly targeted by abuse to the point of it interfering with their lives in public deserve spaces where they can feel a modicum of safety in spaces designed to keep them safe from the people who overwhelmingly prey on them to the point of ruining their lives.

But hey, feel free to keep your doors open during the night and let any rando strangers walk into your house. As long as they don't literally start robbing you or worse, you have no right to do anything, right?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

But you being the victim of a crime means you get to argue to take away all protection and privacy measures that prevent crime.

How many rapists do you think will take a time out while you go get the manager or security? Or are you saying women should just lie there and rehearse their statement for the police while the rapist does his thing? What made you hate other women so much that this is an acceptable thing to you to argue for?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I'm not taking away privacy. Restrooms' are already separated by stalls, so you already have privacy. I even advocate to add stalls to locker rooms, so I'm advocating for increased privacy. You and I have different ideas of privacy.

Most rapes don't happen in public restrooms, and most victims know their rapist. So the chance of a random stranger raping you in a public restroom is extremely rare.

How many rapists do you think will take a time out while you go get the manager or security?

The reality is, being out in public has risks. I take walks at nights every Friday. There is a chance someone will attack me or rape me, but that is unlikely to happen. But if someone does attack me or rape me, I will go to the police, and I hope that person will be fully prosecuted to the full extent of the law. It's unfortunate if it will have to come to that. But that's what you do when you're the victim of a crime. I still get up, take the subway and go to work, go see friends, even with the risk that something might happen. And if something does happen, I will call the police.

What made you hate other women so much that this is an acceptable thing to you to argue for?

Being against sex-segregated spaces ≠ hating other women.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You know why it’s unlikely you’ll be raped in the ladies toilets at the club? Cause men are barred. You can try and argue around that but it’s true. Letting men/transwomen (same damn thing) in is taking away that safety for no reason other than a few people with hurt feelings and nothing else important going on in their lives or minds.

You said that women can go to the police or security if they are attacked, at what point of the attack do you think women can leave to get help? How do you justify endorsing a system that implies that it is better to try and prosecute a rapist or otherwise violent attacker after allowing them access to victims? How do you justify taking away protections? Do you not know what prevention and protection mean? Nobody gives a fuck that you will totally prosecute a pickpocketer on the subway. Being pickpocketed does not leave you bleeding, dehumanised, maybe beaten to within in inch of your life, possibly pregnant, possibly with a disease, and traumatised. Rape kits are backed up for years rendering prosecution nearly impossible, the attacker may be part of the law enforcement, the attacker may have not been recognised, there’s rarely a witness making prosecution harder, the victim may be under duress not to report the crime due to their own involvement with illegal activities, the victim may not report because of fears of retribution, the victim may try and report and share my own experience of being told I shouldn’t have been drunk and asking if I was wearing something more revealing before I went to the station while rolling their eyes at you.

You are downplaying rape as either not a real concern or as an inevitability on the level of being mugged or shouted at in a large city. That action by itself screams misogyny.

It’s all well and good for you to say you aren’t but that’s simply untrue.

Sure, you don’t hate women you just find it acceptable to give our spaces to men who masturbate in them. Very supportive to women. You don’t hate women, you just support seemingly any movement that will take away out protections and rights.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yeah, even if we got rid of the rape-culture in law-enforcement (already a tall order), the extreme frequency of male violence and creeping on women and the inherent difficulties of prosecuting these acts already renders any hope of justice for the majority of the cases impractical and futile, let alone the slew of cases that would happen if women lost any protections. Though actually what would more likely happen is that we'd get women traumatised and fearing leaving the house and being in public even more than they already do, but we could at least rest easy knowing that some male trans person will use their hermit ways as evidence of having a female brain.

The only way for spaces meant to protect women from male violence to stop existing is for male violence over women to stop existing. Calling women misandrists and bigots for needing spaces away from male violence in situations when they're vulnerable to it the most, and advocating the removal of their protections for that reason...I just have no words for how sick that is.

It’s all well and good for you to say you aren’t but that’s simply untrue.

Ok but what if they identify as a not-misogynist?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oooooh and what if the rapists don’t identify as rapists?

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most rapes don't happen in public restrooms, and most victims know their rapist.

Oh my friggin god, the reason for this is not because strange men are all lovely proper gentlemen who'd never prey on women! Countless women experience strange men creeping on them all the fucking time, so these men are absolutely not some figment of their hysterical imagination! Of course that when women are so extremely weary of strange men all their lives (for a damn good reason) that they're going to be victimised by the men who they know and let their guard down around, and no shit that assaults rarely happen in female-only spaces where the mere presence of men is forbidden and alarming! jfc it kills me that people will literally use the limited measures that women use to protect themselves from ever-present male violence as evidence that male violence isn't a thing and that women are just making their victimisation up.

being out in public has risks.

Being in private also has risks. So, guess you don't need a door and a lock on your house, right? After all, you're being very exclusionary and bigoted towards others with that, treating them all as criminals. Are you advocating for the removal of those protections? I mean criminals can break into your house anyways, so what's the issue?

Also funny how just being in public is overwhelmingly risky specifically for women due to specifically male violence, and this has been the case throughout history and still is in many places, to the point of women being punished severely both by their male relatives and male strangers if they dare leave the house on their own. But I'm sure that's just the feminazi being hysterical and conspiring to rewrite history again. Women have done the same to men, after all, right? I mean, I'm sure they did...at some point...uh...Well, it's just people being assholes, right? And the identities and rights of the victims and their aggressors just happen to consistently go the same way out of a really funny and weird coincidence, hahaha!

But that's what you do when you're the victim of a crime.

OR you can actually advocate and receive certain protections so you lower your chances of being a victim of a crime. Like how you can put doors with a lock on your house and other security measures. But tell us again if you're keeping your doors open and letting strangers freely into your house. I'm dying to know. After all, you can just call the police afterwards.

Being against sex-segregated spaces ≠ hating other women.

Advocating for the removal of women's protections against the ever-present violence ruining their lives is misogynistic, and no amount of you just claiming it's not can change that. If your priority is endangering and blaming the victims of male violence even more instead of actually preventing male violence from happening in the first place, you are a part of the problem. "I'm not sexist, but..." is not the fool-proof disclaimer you think it is.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh my friggin god, the reason for this is not because strange men are all lovely proper gentlemen who'd never prey on women! Countless women experience strange men creeping on them all the fucking time, so these men are absolutely not some figment of their hysterical imagination! Of course that when women are so extremely weary of strange men all their lives (for a damn good reason) that they're going to be victimised by the men who they know and let their guard down around, and no shit that assaults rarely happen in female-only spaces where the mere presence of men is alarming! jfc it kills me that people will literally use the limited measures that women use to protect themselves from ever-present male violence as evidence that male violence isn't a thing and that women are just making their victimisation up.

I personally experienced sexual harassment multiple times while out on the streets. For instance, men telling me I'm sexy and asking me to go to their home for sex. I've never been attacked or raped yet.

Being in private also has risks. So, guess you don't need a door and a lock on your house, right? After all, you're being very exclusionary and bigoted towards others with that, treating them all as criminals. Are you advocating for the removal of those protections? I mean criminals can break into your house anyways, so what's the issue?

Your home is your own private property so you should lock the doors to to prevent break-ins. Businesses and other places open to the general public have no business excluding anyone based on race, sex, disability, etc.

OR you can actually advocate and receive certain protections so you lower your chances of being a victim of a crime. Like how you can put doors with a lock on your house and other security measures. But tell us again if you're keeping your doors open and letting strangers freely into your house. I'm dying to know. After all, you can just call the police afterwards.

I don't agree sex-segregated spaces necessarily lower your chances of being a victim of a crime. I advocate for other crime prevention measures, like police taking intimate partner violence seriously or more funding funding for CPS because children are often not removed from abusive homes.

Advocating for the removal of women's protections against the ever-present violence ruining their lives is misogynistic, and no amount of you just claiming it's not can change that. If your priority is endangering and blaming the victims of male violence even more instead of actually preventing male violence from happening in the first place, you are a part of the problem. "I'm not sexist, but..." is not the fool-proof disclaimer you think it is.

That is your opinion. We can agree to disagree. Anyway, according to a PPRI study, 51% of men support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth, compared to 40% of women. Are these 60% of women misogynistic? Most women don't mind sharing a restroom with people AMAB, in fact 10% more than men don't mind sharing a restroom with people AFAB.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So?