For people who think bathrooms should be segregated by birth sex, are passing trans men entitled to use the women's bathroom?

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Why would anyone do that when all people, able bodied or disabled, and of any race/ethnicity, have a sex?

[–]inkling 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I'm saying that the solution that works for the most people isn't always the most morally correct, not just in regards to sex segregation.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Then that’s what you should have said instead of making a faulty (and ironically ableist and racist) analogy, you also would have needed to back up why not sacrificing sex based spaces for the sake of trans people is not the most morally correct.

This is specifically and only about sex segregation. So whatever other context where what works for the most isn’t the most moral choice is detracting from the subject at hand.

[–]inkling 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

you also would have needed to back up why not sacrificing sex based spaces for the sake of trans people is not the most morally correct

I don't think there is any evidence that allowing trans people to use the spaces that align with their gender identity causes those spaces to be unsafe for others. I think there is actually evidence of the opposite https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

Whereas there is evidence that not allowing trans people to use spaces that align with their gender identity has bad consequences for trans people https://www.newsweek.com/transgender-bathroom-law-study-suicide-454185

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29159308/

That is what makes it more morally correct to me.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So… if we don’t let trans people use the bathroom they choose, they’re gonna kill themselves?

So just mass emotional manipulation?

Not respecting boundaries of others, not accepting basic biology, but… mass emotional manipulation… that’s what sounds morally sound to you?

This isn’t really convincing to me, it just kind of seems like you’ve shown me that trans people are severely mentally unstable and need more thorough mental health assistance, rather than a free pass to invade other people’s spaces and force those other people to feel uncomfortable in spaces actually intended for them. The public should have nothing to do with the mental health treatment for trans people. We are not qualified to be responsible for trans people’s mental health. Trans people are responsible for their own mental health. If they can’t handle using the proper bathroom, that’s a huge red flag that there’s something not being dealt with mentally, imo.

The thing is- I used to not care about bathrooms, but there’s no stopping at bathrooms. We accepted that we were going to share bathrooms- and everything else was taken. And we can’t say no to anything. Because every time someone speaks up, we just get told it’s what’s best for trans people like trans people are all that’s supposed to matter.

What’s most morally correct is not disrupting the rights of others (which-TM don’t really do, that’s more a TW thing imo), not forcing yourself on others (or their sports, spaces, groups etc). Id say it’s also morally correct to respect sex over gender/identity, since sex is actually provable, unchanging, and real.

I do think when it comes to transmen it’s different, because they are putting themselves in a male environment, not a female one. I don’t think there’s the issue of which vulnerable group deserves to actually be protected because males are not generally considered a vulnerable group. I think there’s a huge difference between a male disrupting a female space and a female entering a male space.

The most morally correct thing is to give trans people their own spaces if they absolutely cannot use the proper (sex based) spaces.

[–]inkling 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Regardless of whether you care if trans people kill themselves or not, it seems obvious to me that if there is a proven bad outcome for trans people without gender affirming policies and no evidence for a bad outcome for cis people with gender affirming policies, gender affirming policies should be preferable.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So… Everyone else sacrificing their needs, rights and comfort for trans people is the most morally correct thing.

Because you personally think so.

Got it.

I understand the studies- the most morally correct thing is still to attempt to make the most people possible Feel safe, comfortable and as if they have equal rights. (And to make sure that trans people are given whatever mental health assistance they may need to cope with the fact of their biology and the fact that other people matter and have rights)

Third spaces for trans people is how you do that. That’s the most fair. That’s the most correct. The world doesn’t revolve around trans people.

Do you think it’s morally correct to force the rest of the population to be responsible for your mental health?

[–]inkling 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Because you personally think so.

No, because the evidence says so

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The “evidence” says nothing about morals.

And I don’t get why it’s moral to make 99% of the population uncomfortable for 1%