GC: What are "sex-based" rights?

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (8 children)

Misogynistic movements tend to disregard female people, hence why the trans rights movement performs in line with said roles.

It's the opposite. Anyway trans men are invisible in society compared to trans women. I believe this is because trans men pass better, and as a result get noticed less. A trans man walking into the men's restroom is much less likely to get noticed than a trans woman walking into the womans restroom. As a result of passing better, they experience less discrimination and harassment than trans women. This is not to say they don't experience discrimination at all. Also masculinity is not so much celebrated in society as much as femininity. A few trans men have said people will make statements like "men are trash" but then turn around to them and say "no, not you!" as if they aren't men. "People think of trans women as perverted men and trans men as harmless, silly or even misguided lesbians."

Trans men of reddit, what problems do you deal with that people of other identities don't know or think about?

Trans Men of MensLib: What insights to manhood and masculinity have you gained after transitioning?

Oddly enough most trans men are more supportive of the trans movement than gender critical feminism. For instance, on r/ftm, I only found TWO threads complaining about trans women.

Discrimination Against Trans Men [vent]

Frustrations with trans community of reddit?

However I foumd 20+ threads complaining about "TERFs". Funny enough GCs say trans women talk over trans men way more than trans men say that themselves. Yet GCs themselves talk over trans men. They keep insisting trans men are only transitioning to escape sexism or that they are lesbians in denial or are fetishizing gay men. Most trans men say that is not the case.

Feminist Trans Men & the Narrative of Internalized Misogyny

I want to die... confused, scared, am I manipulating myself?

The idea that trans men are “lesbians in denial” is demeaning and wrong

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Anyway trans men are invisible in society compared to trans women.

  1. Men are a threat to women. Other women can suck up to a patriarchal society, but they're ultimately not the ones causing the issues, nor are they a threat to other women. As such, GC focuses on upholding the rights of women in face of a male threat.

  2. Misogynistic movements tend to disregard women, which is why you see the same patriarchal dynamics play out the same way, even when the parties involved roleplay as the opposite sex.

All of this is predictably in line with the patriarchy and pretty easily explained.

A few trans men have said people will make statements like "men are trash" but then turn around to them and say "no, not you!" as if they aren't men.

It's almost like even supposedly progressive people understand why trans ideology is bullshit. They know that women do not pose a threat, no matter how much they roleplay as men. As such, they forget to lie and pretend that they do, and trans people as usual freak out when they're reminded of reality and demand that others play into a lie.

Male trans people are still the ones with male-pattern violence like sexual assault and homicides. If you think this fact is unfair solely because it's not gender-affirming to trans people, try thinking of the women who are actually targeted by and who experience this male-pattern violence, and then ask yourself which of these two is an actual problem that needs to be addressed.

Also masculinity is not so much celebrated in society as much as femininity

Is this going to end up with you going full MRA claiming that men are actually the real victims of society?

Just don't forget to mention that you're totally not misogynistic, but...

most trans men are more supportive of the trans movement than gender critical feminism

Duh. More women in general are supportive of progressive movements. I have yet to come across a progressive movement where women didn't let others walk over them, or threw other women under the bus for the patriarchy's approval.

Funny enough GCs say trans women talk over trans men way more than trans men say that themselves. Yet GCs themselves talk over trans men.

I mean, we also talk over women who think it is their duty to be an obedient slave to their husband and a walking sex doll for the male gaze. Talking over misogynistic women has always been what feminism does. Certain women being invested in supporting and excusing the patriarchal system because they don't want to rock the boat and they think they can make it work in their advantage does not discredit feminism. If it did, women wouldn't get the right to vote because they'd just agree to not talk over the women who thought they didn't need the right to vote. The key difference is that we're not progressive men talking over women, like how male trans people talk over female trans people.

They keep insisting trans men are only transitioning to escape sexism or that they are lesbians in denial or are fetishizing gay men. Most trans men say that is not the case.

Is there any misogynistic woman out there who just comes out and says that she hates women? Misogynistic people's "I'm not misogynistic, but..." disclaimers are worth jackshit. What matters is the kinds of views they espouse and support. I don't for a second believe that self-hating women who parrots misogynistic ideas aren't in any way motivated by these views, and that they're instead lead by some gendersoul or whatever. I'm gonna go for a more logical conclusion here.

Also, what is it with you using Reddit threads as...evidence? I've talked to plenty of trans people and been to their spaces. None of what you say is in any way surprising to me, or the GC movement. It's pretty consistent with how men and women act under patriarchal pressures in other areas as well.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

Men are a threat to women. Other women can suck up to a patriarchal society, but they're ultimately not the ones causing the issues, nor are they a threat to other women. As such, GC focuses on upholding the rights of women in face of a male threat.

Yup, women are never a threat to men. Talk about stereotypes.

Misogynistic movements tend to disregard women, which is why you see the same patriarchal dynamics play out the same way, even when the parties involved roleplay as the opposite sex.

Well the trans movement disregards trans men more than trans women. Anyway, there is no such thing as roleplaying the opposite sex. When you transition, you are the sex you identify as.

It's almost like even supposedly progressive people understand why trans ideology is bullshit.

Being trans is only "bullshit" to transphobes.

Is this going to end up with you going full MRA claiming that men are actually the real victims of society?

There are ways which men are disadvantaged by society over women. Pointing it out does not make you an MRA or a misogynist.

Duh. More women in general are supportive of progressive movements. I have yet to come across a progressive movement where women didn't let others walk over them, or threw other women under the bus for the patriarchy's approval.

The reason trans men oppose gender critical feminist is because the movement is transphobic to them and contradicts their values. For instance, many trans men get top surgery and sometimes bottom surgery, but GCs consider that "mutilation". Many GCs insist the majority of trans men are transitioning to escape sexism but most trans men say that is not why they are transitioning. GCs even call trans gay men attracted to other men fetishists and fujoshis.

I'm a progressive cis woman. I don't let anyone walk all over me and I have excellent critical thinking skills, and I still support the trans community.

I mean, we also talk over women who think it is their duty to be an obedient slave to their husband and a walking sex doll for the male gaze. Talking over misogynistic women has always been what feminism does.

Trans men aren't women. They are a separate, marginalized group. I oppose any privileged group talking over a marginalized group. This includes cis people talking over trans men, including cis women.

Is there any misogynistic woman out there who just comes out and says that she hates women?

Yes. There are women who opposed women's rights to vote. There are women who believe women should be restricted to certain occupations. There are women who harshly judge other women for not meeting their standards of modesty.

Also, what is it with you using Reddit threads as...evidence? I've talked to plenty of trans people and been to their spaces. None of what you say is in any way surprising to me, or the GC movement. It's pretty consistent with how men and women act under patriarchal pressures in other areas as well.

So the Reddit threads I cite aren't surprising but aren't evidence either?

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Yup, women are never a threat to men. Talk about stereotypes.

Is that why no men fear women assaulting them, while women do? Is that why half of women are murdered by their male intimate partners while the reverse not only barely happens, and when it does, it's usually done by a victim of domestic violence towards her abuser? You've always so quickly gone silent when this reality of violence against women was pointed out to you, but that's never stopped you from disappearing, reappearing elsewhere, and still continuing to lie about this. You have been told the statistics before and even if you weren't, the ubiquity of male harassment in the vast majority of women's lives that isn't replicated in reverse should clue you in. You only have to open your eyes and think about the world around you, instead of parroting patriarchal delusions because men will get pissy and called out otherwise.

When you transition, you are the sex you identify as.

Based on what exactly? The amount of testosterone and estrogen in your body? This is not what sex is, or else we wouldn't be able to recognise the sex of men and women with hormonal disorders, and reproduction wouldn't still keep working the way it does in literally all cases known to humankind. Moreover, aside from making mentally ill people feel better, what is the benefit of actually changing the definition of sex from what it actually is to how much of a certain hormone you have in your body? The reality of one's sex is still impossible to change, and that is a simple biological fact.

Also, you do realise you're being transphobic, right? Trans ideology claims that people do not need to transition in order to be whatever sex they claim they are. How do you justify this transphobic view to fellow trans activists? Are you also the same transphobe who said you wouldn't have sex with female genitalia even if the person identified as male?

There are ways which men are disadvantaged by society over women. Pointing it out does not make you an MRA or a misogynist.

Continuously lying that women do not experience oppression while also lying about ways in which men do does. If you are parroting misogynistic myths for the sake of patriarchy, you are pretty much an MRA even if you don't actively identify as such. You don't need to actively be a member of a patriarchal movement to be affected by patriarchal brainwashing and misogyny. Again, "I'm not sexist, but" is not the excuse you think it is.

most trans men say that is not why they are transitioning

Right, just as you say you're feminist while lying, downplaying and covering up the oppression that women experience while pushing imaginary male oppression against all evidence to the contrary and women's lives being ruined as a result of this tradition of lying about their oppression. Just as traditional women claim they're not in misogynistic relationships when they think they deserve to be beaten and have their husbands control every aspect of their lives.

Again, "I'm not sexist, but" is not the excuse you think it is.

I have excellent critical thinking skills

lmao you continuously lie when faced with evidence to the contrary. Your comments usually don't even respond to anything that was said, but only stick to parroting "Transwomen are women". How in the flying fuck do you think that's compatible with "critical thinking skills"? You can't repeat whatever you've been trained to, refuse to respond to any criticisms, lie and ignore anything that rips your parroting apart, and brag about what great "critical thinking skills" you have lmao

Trans men aren't women.

See, if engaged in the kind of brainwashed parroting that you do, I would just respond "Female trans people are women". You would respond "Transmen are men" and we could keep going on and on like this forever. Given that my brain doesn't get a rush of "Wow I'm so smart" from just copy-pasting a single statement regardless of what is being said, I can't actually do this dance with you. But I can take it further and explain why women biologically cannot become men and vice versa, and also why trans ideas (along with a host of other accompanying misogynistic ideas) are damaging to women's rights. And it's not because "they feel that way".

I actually don't care if you feel that "transwomen are women" or that cats are actually dogs or if the Earth is flat. No, really, I don't. What I do care is when you cannot justify this statement with anything. If you say the Earth is flat, I will demand you to explain why. If you merely respond with "The Earth is flat" and then add that you have "great critical thinking skills", how convincing do you think I'll find that to be?

Yes. There are women who opposed women's rights to vote. There are women who believe women should be restricted to certain occupations. There are women who harshly judge other women for not meeting their standards of modesty.

I don't know if you've ever spoken to these women, but very, very few of them will tell you they hate women and that women are subhuman. So, by your logic, they are not sexist, nor do they actually hate women. See, that's the problem with "I'm not sexist, but...". Even women beaten by their husbands and the husbands who beat them have used this. It's almost like people parroting mantras that are directly at odds with all of their sexist behaviour and ideals doesn't magically render everything they do not-sexist. It's almost like things exist beyond just people telling you stuff that isn't true, and you having to believe them in order to be emphatic and validating.

Also, I love how your example of "real" sexism is vapid stuff like "Being judgemental of the way someone dresses" while here you are, literally lying though your teeth about all the assaults, rape, deaths and terror that men put women through. Honestly, I'd rather you criticised someone's shoes than pushed the delusional male fantasy of women lying about their oppression and actually being the real abusers of men.

So the Reddit threads I cite aren't surprising but aren't evidence either?

Evidence of what? That trans people go against radical feminism, pander to men and believe they have magical gendersouls or brainsex compelling them to transition? Yes. I know. Duh. How is this relevant? Can you spend more time actually addressing what I say without lying or ignoring it and less time hunting down friggin Reddit threads that tell me all the things I've already addressed and explained why they're in line with patriarchal socialisation? What's next, you're gonna hunt down comments about women claiming they don't need abortion and gendered spaces to prove that feminism is bs?

Also, ofc you're only gonna get the affirming trans stuff when anyone who takes issue with it gets banned.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

but very, very few of them will tell you they hate women and that women are subhuman. So, by your logic, they are not sexist, nor do they actually hate women

Iranian government said they are repsecting women very much and they are very important in Islam.

Taliban said that women "will have all rights they deserve" and that they are caring a lot about women.

Yet everyone else is seeing their actions as an extreme form of abuse against women.

Also, I love how your example of "real" sexism is vapid stuff like "Being judgemental of the way someone dresses" while here you are

Isn't "this male is wearing a dress, so he must be a woman" - is vapid sexism?

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Iranian government said they are repsecting women very much and they are very important in Islam. Taliban said that women "will have all rights they deserve" and that they are caring a lot about women.

Literally this. Studies constantly show that people just claiming they're not sexist has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not they're actually sexist. It's draining that I constantly have to explain to people what is basically "This kid doesn't actually have a time machine just because they say they do, or because they pretend they're off to meet the dinosaurs". Like, this isn't even basic feminism, it's what should be common sense.

Isn't "this male is wearing a dress, so he must be a woman" - is vapid sexism?

I think they were referring to the liberal feminist notion of women being judgemental of other women who sexualise themselves for the male gaze or wear hijabs, which is, ya know, the real misogyny. And that's bad because according to liberal feminism, all these women choose their own oppression as the true individual snowflakes they are and the real misogyny is criticising their choices (a great example of why liberalism is utterly incompatible with progress for women).

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think they were referring to the liberal feminist notion of women being judgemental of other women who sexualise themselves for the male gaze or wear hijabs, which is, ya know, the real misogyny. And that's bad because according to liberal feminism, all these women choose their own oppression as the true individual snowflakes they are and the real misogyny is criticising their choices

Ah, choice feminism.

They never tend to understand that chosing between "be stoned to death or wear burka" and "starve to death or sexually please men" is NOT a choice.

(a great example of why liberalism is utterly incompatible with progress for women)

"Classic" liberalism would help to progress women's rights, but "liberalism" in definition which came from the USA institutions is not really liberalism at all. It is post-modernistic take on liberalism and "everything left-wing is liberalism" (while it is not true, for example right now Conservative party is more liberal than Democratic party in the USA, but both only partially liberal).

Same as "marxism" in woke circles is not marxism at all, but post-modernistic deconstruction of marxism.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They never tend to understand that chosing between "be stoned to death or wear burka" and "starve to death or sexually please men" is NOT a choice.

I think they understand, which is why they think the second an immediate threat of being stoned or starved disappears, they think there are no social pressures pushing women towards these things, despite very much being there. Kinda like how people think that just because most women aren't beaten anymore by their husbands and they can vote, that misogyny is a thing of the past.

Modern liberalism is pretty much seen as being ok with everything, not criticising anyone and letting everyone do what they want. So if you criticise the rampant misogyny in our society, you're actually being oppressive towards these people and also claiming that people aren't special snowflakes whose choices matter above all else. This is obviously opposed to making any strides for women, because this demands that the patriarchy be criticised and that people consider their sexist biases, instead of writing them off as "to each their own" and "choice" that just so happens to match patriarchal pressures.

Conservative party is more liberal than Democratic party in the USA

lol how exactly?

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

lol how exactly?

Democratic party is pushing against freedom of speech and using authoritharian methods, while Conservative party is not (which is not making them less bad or retarded, thought).

I think they understand, which is why they think the second an immediate threat of being stoned or starved disappears, they think there are no social pressures pushing women towards these things, despite very much being there. Kinda like how people think that just because most women aren't beaten anymore by their husbands and they can vote, that misogyny is a thing of the past.

Still, the thing is that for MAJORITY of women in the world all that is STILL true. Around third of women in the world can be legally murdered if they say "no" to men in some circumstances, a lot of women in more poor countries can't gain enough to sustain themselves and kids if father/husband leave.

Libfems are just privileged and/or rich and think that everyone in the world can make same choices as them and have no consequences for them. It is clearly seen when they are saying "those women were transmen in 1700s" when speaking about women, who were trying to do "forbidden for women" jobs or education. They think that women could just have that education, but they just chosen to identify as men because they just wanted to, not because they were forced to and otherwise they'd be killed, imprisoned or would not be able to get education or work where they like.

Especially funny it sounds when look at modern versions of Sharia, where women are rightless, but if woman's husband (and his father) died and she has no sons and her husband owned a land, then she can take his name, wear "manly cloths", deny any womanhood (so can't have sexual life, become pregnant, can't do any "feminine" jobs) and pretend to be her husband for the rest of her life. And she will get almost all rights that men have. Obviously it is "just a choice" too and "she just transman".